Creation vs. Evolution

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6days

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alwight said:
But science concerns itself only with the natural and not a presupposition of a supernatural "framework".

Haha.... Your self serving definition seems to suggest science is the religion of naturalism...Uninterested in knowledge or truth that doesn't fit that belief system...And unwilling to follow evidence no matter where it leads

alwight said:
If science were to somehow include a supernatural then the miraculous could be invoked at any convenient point
As I think you know modern science was founded based on literal Bible beliefs that there was a supernatural creation, and God now sustains creation....and that the miraculous can not just be involved at any convenient point. Your argument is the typical atheist strawman argument. (Trying to define an argument inaccurately so that you can try knock it down) Science, to many atheists is a game where you exclude any hypothesis that points to the Creator even when all the data seems to point that way.
 

MichaelCadry

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Dear jonahdog,

Science is whatever it wants to be to Atheists, but there are a lot more Scientists who are not Atheists. So think how you will. That's your problem to deal with!

Michael
 

Lon

Well-known member
Because I work with a few, and they don't take creationism seriously. If scientists don't take something seriously, you can rest assured that they won't go wasting money on it. They've been immersed in science for their whole lives, and don't see any reason to believe a literal Genesis any more than a literal Egyptian mythos. That's not to say that they don't believe in the bible (they are ALL Christian that I'm working with), but they know for certain that a literal Genesis is a bit unrealistic
I think it yet can be taken literally. Both scientists and theologians have gotten it wrong before. For the most part, YEC exists because we don't want to second-guess God or question the veracity of His communication. Rather than opening a can of worms that 1) would have us correcting the Bible and 2) second-guessing, it is pretty self-explanatory that the Christian will stand by what is pertinent to him and the scientist would also. Some of this is rather a conflict of interpretation on both sides of the isle. For both, that's a good thing, it can keep us on our toes and allow us to rethink what is true and examine what we thought was true.
 

Lon

Well-known member
Haha we just went over the brontosaurus-apatosaurus sham in class! A classic example of science before the age of easy peer-review. As I'm sure you know, the only mistake on that fossil was it had the wrong skull. A big mistake, and not one that could ever happen with the intense scrutiny that scientific "discoveries" undergo today


Lon, what do you think antibiotics do? Your distrust of science is disappointing. Companies like Johnson and Johnson have scientists working for them, but they are by no means a scientific organization. They are a business, and businesses are about making money. You can trust the information from scientific organizations because they typically aren't monetarily incentivized.
You seem to think that it operates the same way it did 200+ years ago (when the whole scientific community believed in a literal Genesis). Tell me, if a literal Genesis is correct, and if you have ANY faith in scientists, then why did the entire fields of biology and geology start out with a belief in a young earth, then after decades of gathering evidence changed their minds to old earth?

Why did the gathering of evidence lead to the wrong conclusion when (according to YECs) the right conclusion was reached initially, before the evidence was gathered?
I covered a bit of this above. Those in the field of science have more at stake in their community (whether they have surmised correctly or not). We tend to put a lot of stock in our disciplines, and such has a good many positives, even if we are a bit biased. First, it means you enjoy what you are doing and second, because of that, you'd likely do it well and with a fervor. I guess I'm saying don't be too disappointed when it comes to fields of study. Science works, even if the guy doesn't know what his inoculation does. It doesn't matter if he disbelieves it will keep him from getting polio because it works whether he knows it or not.

(I do take antibiotics for infections, but they don't do much but cause viruses to morph and get stronger so it is better not to be a part of the problem)
 

Jose Fly

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Haha.... Your self serving definition seems to suggest science is the religion of naturalism...Uninterested in knowledge or truth that doesn't fit that belief system...And unwilling to follow evidence no matter where it leads

And that brings up that question no creationist will ever answer....how do you propose we investigate and test God?

I guarantee it'll go unanswered this time too.
 
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MichaelCadry

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What's the scoop Lon ?

Dear patrick jane,

A procedure like Hep-C could happen if there was a problem with contamination. That's all that I can figure. I got the Flu vaccine this year and probably shouldn't have bothered, because I've had flu/cold 5 days now and I am not doing any better. If my flu bug gets stronger from me having the vaccine and the flu besides, then the flu virus gets stronger. Let's hope I have a cold.

Much Love In Christ, And God's Best To You,

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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And that brings up that question no creationist will ever answer....how do you propose we investigate and test God?

I guarantee it'll go unanswered this time too.

As I think you know modern science was founded based on literal Bible beliefs that there was a supernatural creation, and God now sustains creation....and that the miraculous can not just be involved at any convenient point. Your argument is the typical atheist strawman argument. (Trying to define an argument inaccurately so that you can try knock it down) Science, to many atheists is a game where you exclude any hypothesis that points to the Creator even when all the data seems to point that way.
[/QUOTE]


Dear Jose Fly,

I've got to go for a couple hours, but I will put forth my answer to your question, but that is it. I have more important things to do besides banter with you. A LOT of other things.

How dare You seek to TEST God, or INVESTIGATE Him?? Only someone who is not familiar with God would ask such questions. You sure are asking God to come down on your head. You're playing in the big leagues now. You DON'T test God or investigate Him. He does that to you. He is so much higher than you could imagine. I would say, don't push your luck, but luck has nothing to do with what you are trying to do. God will show you how to TEST Him soon enough. You'll have to go with that for now. God doesn't make pit stops just to appease you! So don't bother me any more with your ignorance against Our God. You are treading on very thin ice as it is.

Cordially,

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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Dear Jose Fly,

I know that things ran over time-wise, but I am getting back to you the best that I can. I must get to sleep because I have an appt. to keep and I must wake up in time. Please forgive me. I still am a man of my word. Okay, gotta dash!!

Sincerely,

Michael
 

Jonahdog

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Banned


Dear Jose Fly,

I've got to go for a couple hours, but I will put forth my answer to your question, but that is it. I have more important things to do besides banter with you. A LOT of other things.

How dare You seek to TEST God, or INVESTIGATE Him?? Only someone who is not familiar with God would ask such questions. You sure are asking God to come down on your head. You're playing in the big leagues now. You DON'T test God or investigate Him. He does that to you. He is so much higher than you could imagine. I would say, don't push your luck, but luck has nothing to do with what you are trying to do. God will show you how to TEST Him soon enough. You'll have to go with that for now. God doesn't make pit stops just to appease you! So don't bother me any more with your ignorance against Our God. You are treading on very thin ice as it is.

Cordially,

Michael[/QUOTE]

Your god is afraid to be tested? Interesting.
 

Jose Fly

New member
How dare You seek to TEST God, or INVESTIGATE Him??...You DON'T test God or investigate Him.

That's the point. Creationists like to say that "God created...." should be an acceptable answer in science, but then when asked how we should test and investigate God, they either go silent or do what you did....say "How dare you!!!"

So creationists are left with a choice. Either they admit that "God created..." is not an acceptable answer in science, or they try and change the very nature of science and allow all untestable, uninvestigable explanations.

Can't have it both ways. Gotta pick.
 
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MichaelCadry

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Dear Jose Fly,

I've got to go for a couple hours, but I will put forth my answer to your question, but that is it. I have more important things to do besides banter with you. A LOT of other things.

How dare You seek to TEST God, or INVESTIGATE Him?? Only someone who is not familiar with God would ask such questions. You sure are asking God to come down on your head. You're playing in the big leagues now. You DON'T test God or investigate Him. He does that to you. He is so much higher than you could imagine. I would say, don't push your luck, but luck has nothing to do with what you are trying to do. God will show you how to TEST Him soon enough. You'll have to go with that for now. God doesn't make pit stops just to appease you! So don't bother me any more with your ignorance against Our God. You are treading on very thin ice as it is.

Cordially,

Michael



Dear Jonahdog,

I never said my God is afraid to be tested. How absurd. He's not afraid of anything. Where do you come up with this stuff? You are just trying to set up a smokescreen so you can avoid my answer to Jose. I've got to go for now. Got to run!!

Michael
 

6days

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JoseFly said:
And that brings up that question no creationist will ever answer....how do you propose we investigate and test God?

I guarantee it'll go unanswered this time too.
How do you investigate any belief....look for evidence and " test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good." 1 Thess. 5:21

Another failed prediction by an evolutionist.


Here is story of one famous lawyer who investigated evidence...tested...and concluded God's Word is true.
http://www.creationstudies.org/Education/simon_greenleaf.html
 

MichaelCadry

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That's the point. Creationists like to say that "God created...." should be an acceptable answer in science, but then when asked how we should test and investigate God, they either go silent or do what you did....say "How dare you!!!"

So creationists are left with a choice. Either they admit that "God created..." is not an acceptable answer in science, or they try and change the very nature of science and allow all untestable, uninvestigable explanations.

Can't have it both ways. Gotta pick.


Dear Jose F,

How's that for going silent?? We take God's Word for it that He has done things according to what He has had His prophets scribe for us. So we have books of notes about the whole situation: What He's done in the past, present and future. It is all recorded for we who need to know. We believe by faith because if our Dads told us to trust them about something, we would. Well, that is what we do with Our Father. We take things to be true according to what He has asked. Without Faith, you might as well be nonexistent. Okay, enough of this talk. Any other subjects here?

I have one. I don't believe in gays getting married at all, despite the fact that I believe that they should be loved just as much as you would love any other brother, brethren, in Christ. It says that it's an abomination, but it also says so is eating pork, clams, oysters, octopus, crabs, etc. Would you love someone who did these things, or not? And how many of you would change your ways once notified? Would you give up the ham, pork chops and crab legs with clarified garlic butter, and Oysters Rockefeller? All of it is labeled as abominations. And suppose you started doing those things even before you knew they were even wrong? It is good, therefore, to try to change your ways after being notified, but yes, it could take some time before being able to find yourself successful. For some, it will never happen, but you don't hate them the whole journey.

Still, I don't believe they should get married. We are taught in our Bible that that is between a man and a woman. Not between two men or two women. It is well enough that they have Civil Unions. They are blessed to have that. They can put their wishes in writing and everything will be fine when the time of death becomes a factor. Should we allow a man marry his son? A woman marry her son? A man and a sheep? It tampers severely with the whole moral fiber of our beings. Jesus taught us to forgive each other and love each other. He forgave both thieves, adulterers, and even murderers of Christians (Saul, of Tarsus, Paul the Apostle, one and the same). When God says His Son will return for our sake, and we will have a worrisome life finally, we believe Him by Faith, and by knowing His track record of being honest and perfect in His Word. Okay, Gotta run!!

Michael
 
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Jose Fly

New member
How do you investigate any belief....look for evidence and " test everything that is said.

Really? That's your answer?

How do we test and investigate God?

Creationist: By doing tests.​

Great job 6days! :chuckle:

Now if you can just figure out what sort of tests and investigations we could conduct, you might actually contribute something useful. Otherwise, you're just playing more silly games.

Here is story of one famous lawyer who investigated evidence...tested...and concluded God's Word is true.
http://www.creationstudies.org/Education/simon_greenleaf.html

Um....you do realize we're talking about scientific testing and investigations, not law....right? :rolleyes:
 

MichaelCadry

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Really? That's your answer?

How do we test and investigate God?

Creationist: By doing tests.​

Great job 6days! :chuckle:

Now if you can just figure out what sort of tests and investigations we could conduct, you might actually contribute something useful. Otherwise, you're just playing more silly games.



Um....you do realize we're talking about scientific testing and investigations, not law....right? :rolleyes:


Dear Jose F,

What is the deal with you. You want everything handed down to you on a silver platter? You want to know the ways to test God, and how you should test Him. Why don't we just give you the answers instead. We've tried to do that. Also, you shouldn't even be testing God!! Even I would not be so presumptuous to do such a thing. What does the blade of grass that you are, tell the keeper of the field of sod "How do we test you?! I would not dare to begin to test God, but you will get an answer regardless, very soon. If you don't think it's a test to ask how to make the clouds of heaven, heaven in general, the sky blue, how are we in a galaxy so huge as the Milky Way, how did you create such enormously beautiful butterflies and no two seem to be exactly alike? There's a few topics for you right there.

Go for it. I've got to get going in 15 mins. Got an appointment to keep.

With Sincere Regards,

Michael
 
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Jose Fly

New member
Michael,

You may be missing the point. When I say "test God", I'm talking about testing in the scientific sense, not in the sort of "tempting" way you seem to be thinking of.

Let's say we discover something and we wonder "How did that come to be". In science, we conduct an investigation that consists of a series of tests/experiments, data collection, and analyses to come up with an answer. And whatever answer we end up with must be testable.

The creationists here have been insisting that "God created that" be an allowable answer within science. That leads to an obvious issue....if all answers in science must be testable, how do we test the answer "God created that"? There are two possible ways to go from there (6days' silly circular "by conducting tests" aside). We either 1) come up with a way to scientifically test God, or 2) change science so that untestable answers become acceptable.

And that's where these discussions always stop. Creationists never offer a means by which God can be scientifically tested, which makes sense because God can do absolutely anything by definition, including creating something one way but supernaturally making it appear as if it came about by completely different means. And I've yet to encounter anyone who advocates for changing science to allow untestable answers, which again makes sense because then science becomes an "anything goes" enterprise, which would render it useless.

Does that help?
 

6days

New member
JoseFly said:
Great job 6days!
Thanks! And,sorry your prediction once again has failed.:banana:
JoseFly said:
Now if you can just figure out what sort of tests and investigations we could conduct, you might actually contribute something useful.
We start by testng His Word.

*Is there evidence of divine inspiration? Yes.

*Is there internal and external consistency? Yes

*Is there supporting external evidence? Yes.

JoseFly said:
Um....you do realize we're talking aboutscientific testing and investigations, not law....right?
We could discuss that too if you wish. But your 'challenge' was .."how do you propose we investigate and test God?" Science is just one of several avenues of testing / confirming we live in a created universe.
 
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