Creation vs. Evolution

[Hedshaker]

Gravitational Waves Theory

Gravitational Waves Theory

Slightly off topic but an interesting thought:-

So, What exactly is the YEC take on "Gravitational Waves Theory"?

It seems to me they have two options. Either God created Gravitational Waves a few thousand years ago when he poofed the universe, which obviously doesn't align with science but maybe there's some devastating apologetics in the pipe line, or, the whole thing is just another God denying atheist scientists conspiracy and must be denied, like Evolution.

Or are there more options?

Gravitational Waves Theory

 

[MichaelCadry]

Which is why you'll be surprised when it turns out to be Vishnu, duh! :chuckle:

Oh, how funny. You are a stitch. That really gave me a chuckle too, NOT!!

I'm not familiar with this story of yours but it sounds stupid.

Are you claiming you are right about this because you predicted 7 inches of snow and it snowed? (amount of snow may or may not have been 7 inches) I assume I'm meant to ignore every time you have predicted things incorrectly so that it doesn't look like luck (assuming this prediction did occur and turn it to be somewhat right, which I doubt)

I can imagine the headlines now "guy guesses weather once, world in awe. Weather men out of business"

No, Ty, the story is not stupid. Yes, I claimed I was right because God sent the 7" of snow upon the reporter's Office Building, which was many stories high. The snow was measured at his building and in other parts of the city. It measured 7" at the building, which is what God told me that He would do. I didn't guess the weather. God did exactly as He told me that He would do.

Yes, I've had other instances where God has helped me by Him bringing certain weather about. I prayed to God that an electrical storm would happen over a building where Israeli psychic Uri Geller was warping minds by giving a speech there in the building. Sure enough, a great electrical storm came over the building for an hour or so. At least, the police officer whom I had foretold this to, was a witness of my words. I also had a sign of snow in order to me to come out here to Phoenix. I wanted to go to Miami Beach, Florida, but I prayed to the Lord for a sign of 8 inches of snow to see if I should come to Phoenix, Arizona or go to Miami Beach. Well, I got the word from Him to go to Phoenix instead, so I was bummed, but nevertheless, I gave my employer a 3-month notice that I would be quitting work there. They tried to offer me a lot more money and a promotion, but I could not defy my God, so I did decline.

You don't know me at all to know how very many times the Lord has answered me with occurrences that only He could do. There is no Mother Nature. God does ALL of the weather as He sees fit. He maneuvers the cold fronts and warm fronts as He sees fit and they produce what weather they will, totally controlled by God so that one tornado could hit 3 houses and leave the rest unscathed. It is too complex for you to fathom.

I'm fairly sure I've told you this before, but don't act smug about things you know little about. In this case English and the fact that summarises is a perfectly acceptable spelling in English English (or in my case Australian English, which is practically the same thing) rather than your American English.

Yes, I do know that your English is a bit different! Duh!! Haa! Got you back!!

I'm meant to just believe you about the nature of the universe when you don't even understand the nature of your own language?

Michael all you write are proclamations about how you are right, of course no one is going to believe you unless they already believed it before they met you (eg 6days, who I bet believes less of what you say than you think anyway)

Tyrathca, I have close friends who do believe me, yes. They know me very well and know that I've got a great head on my shoulders and also a wise heart inside me which is able to discern true occurrences from false. I could give you their phone numbers and they would tell you themselves that I'm the real deal. You will never believe me because you can't afford to be wrong. It would cause such an upheaval in the way you believe and with you, and your friends. Well, I will close for now. Like I said, I have copies of my letter to the reporter and also newspaper article copies that the 7 inches of snow falling. I just need an address from you! I am trying to work with you.

Michael

 

[alwight]

Oh, one thing before I go to your next quote. Is DNA and the protein it makes the same thing?

That's rather like asking me if the groove on a record is the same thing as the sound that gets transcribed by the record player. Is there a point here?

Why would I do that?

It's a way of telling if you are interested in truth or not.

I need to see a transmission system to conclude anything about Shannon, but I will accept that a correction process is part of the transcription system, but I don't accept that Shannon can be applied here.

Sure. "Biological cell function crucially relies on the accuracy of RNA sequences, transcribed from the DNA genetic code. To ensure sufficiently high fidelity in the face of high spontaneous error rates during transcription, error correction mechanisms must play an important role. A particular mechanism of transcriptional error correction involves backtracking of the RNA polymerase and RNA cleavage. Motivated by recent single molecule experiments characterizing the dynamics of backtracking, we present a microscopic model of this editing process. We show that such a mechanism can yield error frequencies that are in agreement with in vivo observations."

And that is just 1 of the many error correcting systems. There are others that handle errors beyond RNA on to transmission of the information to a protein.

Nitty gritty time with scientific links and everything, well done Yorzhik.
I will accept that resulting errors in the RNA during transcription are avoided by an error correction process (see "pol II" below) while RNA is transcribed from the DNA, but that is for me a part of the transcription process simply to maintain fidelity from the original information. But I learnt something about the transcription system I'll admit but nothing about any transmission system that Shannon might be applied to.

https://www-als.lbl.gov/index.php/r...-of-rna-polymerase-iis-backtracked-state.html

"This process operates with amazingly high fidelity—the error rate is as low as one mistake for every 100,000 DNA base pairs transcribed—thanks in part to error correction by an RNA polymerase known as pol II, which "backtracks," or reverses, along the transcript to remove misincorporated or damaged nucleotides. A group from the Stanford University School of Medicine has solved the structure of pol II in the backtracked state, providing structural insights about a key mechanism for ensuring accurate transcription."

"Because a low error rate during transcription is critical, pol II is very selective in nucleotide triphosphate (NTP) loading and incorporation; it also uses proofreading to improve overall transcription accuracy. During RNA transcription, pol II occasionally reverse-translocates—or backtracks—along the growing strand of RNA, correcting any mistakes that have been made. The newly created (3′) end of the RNA strand is extruded from the active center of pol II, allowing the RNA transcript to be checked and repaired."​

The question now is that Shannon designed his theory to be used within a digital transmission system, can design be inferred from "pol II" or could it not have evolved with all the rest of the DNA transcription process?
If it were divinely created why would it need any backtracking and repair, which seems to be more of a naturalistic remedial fix, what do you say?

Ummm... thanks... I guess.

Is the scientific work we have just discussed worthy enough in your view to be regarded as authoritative, or would you still scoff at a scientific consensus......?

Maybe it isn't pure terror; Maybe it's pure hatred of some supreme being that turns you into a babbling fool? You aren't even responding to what I said because I added a trigger word to my quote.

Na, you're deathly afraid. If it were hatred you wouldn't be so consistently funny.

.....Your quick return to a supposed supernatural being rather indicates that science and reality is all too uncomfortable for you. Scientific consensus has to be rebuffed by any means available.

Oh, right, the correction system that isn't there. Did you read the abstract? Do you think they didn't use the abstract to describe what they actually wrote about?

I even added a link that could be read fully, please do avail yourself of it. The upshot being that DNA transcription is amazingly accurate with an almost total fidelity, just as I said originally. lain:

 

[gcthomas]

Wow so we're finally all in agreement that information can increase!

Given this agreement by your own logic and previous arguments this must also apply to mutations and DNA. Now all you have left is quibbling over the equivocation of "good" and "bad" information (I assume that's you next angle given what you included in your quote).

He seems intent on believing that DNA started off perfectly formed and mutations can only degrade the semantic information. It is no wonder that he has to muddle up this idea with Shannon information to prove a false point. It is a shame that YECs cannot be honest brokers - the prevarication and dissembling is something that most Christians would find shameful.

It is clear, at least, that Yorz recognises that mutations cause an increase in Shannon information, especially when combined with gene duplications, insertions and chromosome duplications. Since evolution only requires variation in genotype that cause differential survival rates in the phenotype, there is nowhere else to go here. Mutations cause variations, evolution selects those that happen to work. End of story.

I wonder what he'll claim now, seeing that he has proven himself wrong with his own linked sources?

 

[Tyrathca]

Oh, how funny. You are a stitch. That really gave me a chuckle too, NOT!!

Why do you scoff? You really would be surprised and there are people who believe in Vishnu just as strongly as you believe in Yahweh.

No, Ty, the story is not stupid. Yes, I claimed I was right because God sent the 7" of snow upon the reporter's Office Building, which was many stories high. The snow was measured at his building and in other parts of the city. It measured 7" at the building, which is what God told me that He would do. I didn't guess the weather. God did exactly as He told me that He would do.

Yeah..... no...... that sounds EXACTLY like you predicting the weather. You predicted it would snow in a city which snows regularly. Well done. *slow clap*

Yes, I've had other instances where God has helped me by Him bringing certain weather about. I prayed to God that an electrical storm would happen over a building where Israeli psychic Uri Geller was warping minds by giving a speech there in the building. Sure enough, a great electrical storm came over the building for an hour or so. At least, the police officer whom I had foretold this to, was a witness of my words. I also had a sign of snow in order to me to come out here to Phoenix. I wanted to go to Miami Beach, Florida, but I prayed to the Lord for a sign of 8 inches of snow to see if I should come to Phoenix, Arizona or go to Miami Beach. Well, I got the word from Him to go to Phoenix instead, so I was bummed, but nevertheless, I gave my employer a 3-month notice that I would be quitting work there. They tried to offer me a lot more money and a promotion, but I could not defy my God, so I did decline.

That sounds less like you predicting the future and more like you leaving major life decisions up to random chance events. I don't recommend that. Besides are you the only person god is sending messages to through weather? If not then isn't there a chance of confusing messages (eg you pray for a sign via snow storm and so does someone else in the same place, how does god tell one person yes and the other no?)

You don't know me at all to know how very many times the Lord has answered me with occurrences that only He could do. There is no Mother Nature. God does ALL of the weather as He sees fit. He maneuvers the cold fronts and warm fronts as He sees fit and they produce what weather they will, totally controlled by God so that one tornado could hit 3 houses and leave the rest unscathed. It is too complex for you to fathom.

Michael how many predictions have you openly shared online for people to verify? How many of those came true AFTER you made the prediction? Didn't you predict the end of the world or some other such calamity that was meant to have already have happened by now?

Yes, I do know that your English is a bit different! Duh!! Haa! Got you back!!

lain: This is getting sad.... At least admit when you are clearly wrong. Trying to pretend it was all part of.... I'm not actually sure what you are trying to pretend it was actually.... whatever you are trying to do it's transparent and silly and just makes you look desperate to always look right even about inconsequential things.

Tyrathca, I have close friends who do believe me, yes. They know me very well and know that I've got a great head on my shoulders and also a wise heart inside me which is able to discern true occurrences from false. I could give you their phone numbers and they would tell you themselves that I'm the real deal.

You realise there are a lot of cults out there whose leaders can say the same thing and cite a lot more people? I say that not to talk up cults but to point out that a few random people who are "really convinced" about something is not evidence for anything. Most of the world is full of stupid people believing stupid things, so far you've said nothing that makes you or your friends look any different from the rest of them. Why are you different? (Don't just say because you are right, they say the same thing)

You will never believe me because you can't afford to be wrong. It would cause such an upheaval in the way you believe and with you, and your friends.

Actually many of my friends are Christian... so an upheaval internally but not so much with friends.

Well, I will close for now. Like I said, I have copies of my letter to the reporter and also newspaper article copies that the 7 inches of snow falling. I just need an address from you! I am trying to work with you.

Post it here, put a link up to a copy.

I am not now nor am I EVER going to put my address up online in a publicly accessible place. This is nothing personal to you but something I do as a general rule through out the internet and a simple rule EVERYONE should have for simple anonymity and prevention of identity theft. Plus if you forget I'm in Australia which makes postage to me both onerous, slow and unnecessarily expensive when we have a perfectly safe, free and anonymous electronic method available right here.

 

[noguru]

He seems intent on believing that DNA started off perfectly formed and mutations can only degrade the semantic information. It is no wonder that he has to muddle up this idea with Shannon information to prove a false point. It is a shame that YECs cannot be honest brokers - the prevarication and dissembling is something that most Christians would find shameful.

It is clear, at least, that Yorz recognises that mutations cause an increase in Shannon information, especially when combined with gene duplications, insertions and chromosome duplications. Since evolution only requires variation in genotype that cause differential survival rates in the phenotype, there is nowhere else to go here. Mutations cause variations, evolution selects those that happen to work. End of story.

I wonder what he'll claim now, seeing that he has proven himself wrong with his own linked sources?

He won't admit he was wrong. YECs typically do not admit their errors. It really does not matter to them because they are already convinced they have the correct belief and they are going to heaven. Therefore the details are irrelevant to them.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Sorry Michael none of your assertions is at all convincing to me. You don't need my address because it really doesn't matter how much snow happened to fall because I will believe you on that, but snow falling in New York isn't exactly remarkable. Snow in the middle of summer in New York City might give me some pause for thought, but I don't think that has ever happened right?

Dear alwight,

Snow falling is one thing, but when God tells me it will be on a certain day and that it will be 7", not 3" or 5", that is exactly remarkable. When I wrote the letter back to him, God told me to tell this reporter that He would send 7" of snow within 48 hours of him receiving my letter saying so. This was so the reporter would know that it was God with me. God sent it out of the whole sky above Manhattan, every little snowflake, until they amounted to 7" and stopped. You don't think that that is remarkable??? It is awesome!!! What do you people WANT of me? No matter what proof I give you, you will deny it just so you can keep the beliefs you already have. Bummer!

That's not true Michael since it's only people's ideas of gods that are spurned or rejected, not the supposed entity itself.

The OT idea of god is such an awful and tyrannical notion which I reject completely, but not any real personal divine entity.
To believe that any real divine entity would be an unknown, as I do, is not a mistake and you are not the arbiter of any such mistake simply by your evidence-free assertions.
I really don't know why you hold these rather quaint Biblically inspired stereotypical heavenly images. If I were in an aircraft above the clouds what would I see I wonder? :think:

Alwight, it is a shame that you don't believe in the Old Testament idea of God. I feel there is nothing else I can say to you to get through to you about what is fact and what is comfortable for you.

If you were in an aircraft above the clouds, then you would see the tops of those clouds. Do you mean when Jesus returns with the clouds? There will be no planes in the sky, because of what is happening on Earth at that time. There will be a great upheaval in the Earth and you will be lucky if you can drive a car very far without the road you're on being blocked, because of downed trees, a road sunk in a sinkhole or even more, a gorge because of an earthquake. The Lord tells me that there will be earthquakes and that the roads will be impassible because of disasters and that aid and help will not be able to get to the ones who need help. Potable drinking water will be scarce. No phones, no electricity, no running water, no natural gas for stoves or hot water tanks, no light at night except by candle or lamp, etc. There will also be no air traffic controllers either and there will be no planes flying whatsoever. We will be back down to the basics in many places. Food will run out swiftly. Oh, I don't like to dwell on it. Thankfully, I will be in Heaven instead of the Earth.

OK Michael, just try to understand that your beliefs are not evidence, it's just what you happen to believe and typically both I and Tyrathca honestly believe something else and not your idea of God..

Alwight, you believe in whatever you want or whatever floats your boat. I don't know what it will take to get through to you and Tyrathca.

Michael

 

[Tyrathca]

I don't know what it will take to get through to you and Tyrathca.

I can tell you that just telling us you are right and threats of hellfire etc are not working.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Why do you scoff? You really would be surprised and there are people who believe in Vishnu just as strongly as you believe in Yahweh.

Yeah..... no...... that sounds EXACTLY like you predicting the weather. You predicted it would snow in a city which snows regularly. Well done. *slow clap*

Dear Tyrathca,

The people who believe in Vishnu are much smaller in number than those who believe in Yahweh/Jehovah. There is no contest.

It does not matter that I 'predicted' snow in a city which snows regularly. I don't predict the weather. God told me to write the reporter and tell him that 7" of snow would fall on his newspaper building within 48 hours of him receiving my letter. I am just doing the Will of my Father, not 'predicting' anything. Yippee, so it was in New York City instead of the Sahara desert. You are too unbelievable and a laughingstock.

That sounds less like you predicting the future and more like you leaving major life decisions up to random chance events. I don't recommend that. Besides are you the only person god is sending messages to through weather? If not then isn't there a chance of confusing messages (eg you pray for a sign via snow storm and so does someone else in the same place, how does god tell one person yes and the other no?)

Are you searching for straw?? No one else is praying for snow or the like in the immediate area that it happens. So you are being ridiculous. Besides, I am a witness and prophet. So God would answer my prayers before theirs, since I am praying for the greater good.

Michael how many predictions have you openly shared online for people to verify? How many of those came true AFTER you made the prediction? Didn't you predict the end of the world or some other such calamity that was meant to have already have happened by now?
lain: This is getting sad.... At least admit when you are clearly wrong. Trying to pretend it was all part of.... I'm not actually sure what you are trying to pretend it was actually.... whatever you are trying to do it's transparent and silly and just makes you look desperate to always look right even about inconsequential things.
You realise there are a lot of cults out there whose leaders can say the same thing and cite a lot more people? I say that not to talk up cults but to point out that a few random people who are "really convinced" about something is not evidence for anything. Most of the world is full of stupid people believing stupid things, so far you've said nothing that makes you or your friends look any different from the rest of them. Why are you different? (Don't just say because you are right, they say the same thing)
Actually many of my friends are Christian... so an upheaval internally but not so much with friends.

Tyrathca, you think Most of the people on Earth are stupid?? That's a travesty and a shame. Surely the number is less than that by far. Yes, I did say that Armageddon would happen within a certain time period, but I was wrong. But I should be allowed to make one or TWO mistakes, just like all of the Earth's people who make tons of mistakes. I admitted my mistake and said it would never happen again. It is written that 'no man knows that day and hour, neither the Son of Man {Jesus}, but only the Father. The reason I guessed was to appease some atheists who were pressuring me to give them a time period. I shouldn't have done it, but live and learn.

Post it here, put a link up to a copy.

I am not now nor am I EVER going to put my address up online in a publicly accessible place. This is nothing personal to you but something I do as a general rule through out the internet and a simple rule EVERYONE should have for simple anonymity and prevention of identity theft. Plus if you forget I'm in Australia which makes postage to me both onerous, slow and unnecessarily expensive when we have a perfectly safe, free and anonymous electronic method available right here.

Ty, I do not know how to 'post it here' or 'put up a link' to a copy. I need schooling in that area. I have a copy of my letter to the reporter. That is two pages, which I cut down to one page. I can make a copy of it on my printer. The other newspaper article was in the rival newspaper's article. It is one long 8½" x 14" page. I would be glad to make this public to all viewers of TOL, so let me know how to do it.

I am talking to you about leaving me a PM {Private Message} with your address in it. I will give you my address by a PM and that will hopefully be fair. PMs are private, dude.

May God Help You Somehow, Soon,

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

I can tell you that just telling us you are right and threats of hellfire etc are not working.

That is not ALL I am 'just telling' you. I've given you much to ponder, but you refuse. Let it be upon your head then.

Michael

 

[tudorturtl]

One evening in the year nineteen hundred and eighty seven, I heard
rustling noises in my back yard; I rushed towards the window and low and
behold, spied an entire hoard of Dinosaurs nourishing themselves on
some of my watermelon trees! I gazed upon them, for what seemed,
hours then, decided to lay myself down to sleep!

In the morning, I awoke and decided to investigate the damage
those huge creatures had, no doubt created! To my utter surprise,
they evidently cleaned up for themselves! And, in the process, had
planted some more watermelon trees, in place of the ones they had eaten!

I immediately notified the local newspaper office and told them about
my strange encounter! For some inexplicable reason, they said, I should
go home and get plenty of rest! I thought that was an odd
response but decided not to pursue any further action! In the past,
I witnessed several UFO sightings in that same area, and an
occasional big foot encounter! However, none of those compared
to my experience with the Dinosaurs!

Did I mention I saw a Werewolf once and an over-sized colony of
fire breathing ants??

LOL everybody knows watermelons don't grow on trees

 

[tudorturtl]

Dear Tyrathca,

The people who believe in Vishnu are much smaller in number than those who believe in Yahweh/Jehovah. There is no contest.

It does not matter that I 'predicted' snow in a city which snows regularly. I don't predict the weather. God told me to write the reporter and tell him that 7" of snow would fall on his newspaper building within 48 hours of him receiving my letter. I am just doing the Will of my Father, not 'predicting' anything. Yippee, so it was in New York City instead of the Sahara desert. You are too unbelievable and a laughingstock.



Are you searching for straw?? No one else is praying for snow or the like in the immediate area that it happens. So you are being ridiculous. Besides, I am a witness and prophet. So God would answer my prayers before theirs, since I am praying for the greater good.



Tyrathca, you think Most of the people on Earth are stupid?? That's a travesty and a shame. Surely the number is less than that by far. Yes, I did say that Armageddon would happen within a certain time period, but I was wrong. But I should be allowed to make one or TWO mistakes, just like all of the Earth's people who make tons of mistakes. I admitted my mistake and said it would never happen again. It is written that 'no man knows that day and hour, neither the Son of Man {Jesus}, but only the Father. The reason I guessed was to appease some atheists who were pressuring me to give them a time period. I shouldn't have done it, but live and learn.



Ty, I do not know how to 'post it here' or 'put up a link' to a copy. I need schooling in that area. I have a copy of my letter to the reporter. That is two pages, which I cut down to one page. I can make a copy of it on my printer. The other newspaper article was in the rival newspaper's article. It is one long 8½" x 14" page. I would be glad to make this public to all viewers of TOL, so let me know how to do it.

I am talking to you about leaving me a PM {Private Message} with your address in it. I will give you my address by a PM and that will hopefully be fair. PMs are private, dude.

May God Help You Somehow, Soon,

Michael

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

 

[Tyrathca]

The people who believe in Vishnu are much smaller in number than those who believe in Yahweh/Jehovah. There is no contest.

First of all we've already covered multiple times the problem of treating belief as a popularity contest. Just because more people believe something doesn't make it more true.

Furthermore I'm not sure it's fair to imply that 1.1 BILLION people is small...

Are you searching for straw?? No one else is praying for snow or the like in the immediate area that it happens. So you are being ridiculous. Besides, I am a witness and prophet. So God would answer my prayers before theirs, since I am praying for the greater good.

There are 8.4 million people living in New York, that's not even including those who travel there for work or tourism yet. Is it really so implausible that out of those millions 1 other might ask the same thing as you around the same time?

And here you have just admitted that your method of divining god's will is unreliable, since in the example you basically say that god inadvertently answered the other person wrong. He makes a snow storm to answer you which the other person would also see and naturally think it was god answering them (since how are they to know that a "prophet" has taken precedent).

By the way if you are a prophet then why do you need to rely on snow storms for god to answer you? I thought prophets were meant to have a direct line to god's will not this crude method (smoke signals are a more effective form of communication than this!).

Tyrathca, you think Most of the people on Earth are stupid?? That's a travesty and a shame. Surely the number is less than that by far.

Actually I think that most people believe at least one thing stupid. You agree with me by the way since (I presume from the way you talk about them) you think non-christian beliefs are stupid. Most people in the world are not Christian so therefore....

Yes, I did say that Armageddon would happen within a certain time period, but I was wrong.

So I'm meant to ignore something huge like that and focus only on when you correctly guessed the snow once? And how many times have you guessed snow fall or made other predictions before you got it right that time?

If you make enough predictions some of them will turn out to be right eventually due to just random chance.

But I should be allowed to make one or TWO mistakes, just like all of the Earth's people who make tons of mistakes. I admitted my mistake and said it would never happen again. It is written that 'no man knows that day and hour, neither the Son of Man {Jesus}, but only the Father. The reason I guessed was to appease some atheists who were pressuring me to give them a time period. I shouldn't have done it, but live and learn.

If you're a prophet with a direct line to god then no you really aren't allowed a few mistakes especially about the major stuff only you are meant to be able to predict. You're meant to be held to a higher standard than a random dude guessing. And it is disingenuous of you to put forward one minor prediction as evidence while not mentioning your more major predictions (because they failed).

A proper test of anything is to judge all it's success AND it's failures, if you only ever measure the successes you get a very skewed view. In your case we should look at ALL of your predictions and then judge whether you are actually any good at them.

Ty, I do not know how to 'post it here' or 'put up a link' to a copy. I need schooling in that area. I have a copy of my letter to the reporter. That is two pages, which I cut down to one page. I can make a copy of it on my printer. The other newspaper article was in the rival newspaper's article. It is one long 8½" x 14" page. I would be glad to make this public to all viewers of TOL, so let me know how to do it.

I'm sure you can scan a copy to PDF (since you can scan to print) and then I'm sure you can upload it to some hosting site. If you're not sure how to do those things 1. read your printers instruction manual 2. Google it.
Failing that take a digital photo of it.
I'm fairly sure dropbox (free) would suit your needs for file sharing. If you can at least get a digital copy of it though I can find some means for you to share it provided you can put an attachment on an email.

Failing all that surely you can ask god for some help?

Can you at least give the details of the article/s? Perhaps they put their stuff online for us anyway.

I am talking to you about leaving me a PM {Private Message} with your address in it. I will give you my address by a PM and that will hopefully be fair. PMs are private, dude.

Sorry but not going to happen, regardless of you sending me your address. Doing so would basically break every rule I have about my personal information on the internet. My private information does not get shared to anyone online except if I already know them or it is a financial transaction. Stop asking.

I'm very protective of my anonymity here, I have never shared my name here either (even privately) and I even tend to be vague about my profession (probably unnecessary). So I'm never going to be comfortable with addresses. It's nothing personal.

 

[alwight]

Dear alwight,

Snow falling is one thing, but when God tells me it will be on a certain day and that it will be 7", not 3" or 5", that is exactly remarkable. When I wrote the letter back to him, God told me to tell this reporter that He would send 7" of snow within 48 hours of him receiving my letter saying so. This was so the reporter would know that it was God with me. God sent it out of the whole sky above Manhattan, every little snowflake, until they amounted to 7" and stopped. You don't think that that is remarkable??? It is awesome!!! What do you people WANT of me? No matter what proof I give you, you will deny it just so you can keep the beliefs you already have. Bummer!

Michael, If it were meant to be a sign as you seem to think it was then snow falling at a time when snow might reasonably be expected to fall anyway, but then it just isn't such a sign at all.
I realise that you think it was but not for me. If you could perhaps point to a news article where there was some astonishment about snow falling in NYC then that might be a start?

Alwight, it is a shame that you don't believe in the Old Testament idea of God. I feel there is nothing else I can say to you to get through to you about what is fact and what is comfortable for you.

I don't disbelieve all of the OT I simply don't understand a literal interpretation and then the mindless adherence of all of it. I have no doubts that much of it was meant to be allegorical or metaphor from the beginning.

If you were in an aircraft above the clouds, then you would see the tops of those clouds. Do you mean when Jesus returns with the clouds? There will be no planes in the sky, because of what is happening on Earth at that time. There will be a great upheaval in the Earth and you will be lucky if you can drive a car very far without the road you're on being blocked, because of downed trees, a road sunk in a sinkhole or even more, a gorge because of an earthquake. The Lord tells me that there will be earthquakes and that the roads will be impassible because of disasters and that aid and help will not be able to get to the ones who need help. Potable drinking water will be scarce. No phones, no electricity, no running water, no natural gas for stoves or hot water tanks, no light at night except by candle or lamp, etc. There will also be no air traffic controllers either and there will be no planes flying whatsoever. We will be back down to the basics in many places. Food will run out swiftly. Oh, I don't like to dwell on it. Thankfully, I will be in Heaven instead of the Earth.

That all sounds pretty awful Michael, but despite all this going on, what on earth would be the necessity of a dramatic emergence from clouds? Showbiz?
Planes will fall from the skies?
People will die of thirst?
Some more fortunate people will be Raptured away out of harm's way apparently?
To a place where they can gloat and cheer on God?

And you wonder why I think your idea of God is an awful tyrant who I'd have no wish to spend an eternity with or with such people?

Alwight, you believe in whatever you want or whatever floats your boat. I don't know what it will take to get through to you and Tyrathca.

Michael

I base what I believe on actual facts and evidence, while I also know that snow falls regularly in NYC, but what you believe is a fantasy requiring nothing but a rather bonkers belief.

 

[Hedshaker]

Alwight, you believe in whatever you want or whatever floats your boat. I don't know what it will take to get through to you and Tyrathca.

The problem is Michael, it is not us that is wrong, it is you. Time and time again you have been wrong, wrong, wrong! When you first joined this board Armageddon was going to occur within a few weeks or months at the most, remember? Well guess what? By this coming Summer you will have been here 3 years and there isn't the slightest hint of an Armageddon happening any time soon, nor is there going to be. Yet you still claim you are right and that others here should ditch their rational thinking and believe your nonsense just on your say so. Please get real. It isn't too late. Just snap out of it.

And further more, a few inches of snow does not prove the existence of your invisible friend, not by a long chalk.

Wake up Michael, and give it a rest with the childish hell fire threats, no one is buying it.

Relax Michael, no one is going to hell. It's a silly old myth and it's not real.

 

[Yorzhik]

Wow so we're finally all in agreement that information can increase!

You act as if I didn't already agree just like Weaver did.

Given this agreement by your own logic and previous arguments this must also apply to mutations and DNA. Now all you have left is quibbling over the equivocation of "good" and "bad" information (I assume that's you next angle given what you included in your quote).

And so it must also apply to any digital message.

 

[Yorzhik]

That's rather like asking me if the groove on a record is the same thing as the sound that gets transcribed by the record player. Is there a point here?

That's like, one of the dumbest and funniest things you've ever said.

I need to see a transmission system to conclude anything about Shannon, but I will accept that a correction process is part of the transcription system, but I don't accept that Shannon can be applied here.

Because your criteria was that there be a correction system. Doh!

Nitty gritty time with scientific links and everything, well done Yorzhik.

I will accept that resulting errors in the RNA during transcription are avoided by an error correction process (see "pol II" below) while RNA is transcribed from the DNA, but that is for me a part of the transcription process simply to maintain fidelity from the original information. But I learnt something about the transcription system I'll admit but nothing about any transmission system that Shannon might be applied to.

https://www-als.lbl.gov/index.php/r...-of-rna-polymerase-iis-backtracked-state.html

"This process operates with amazingly high fidelity—the error rate is as low as one mistake for every 100,000 DNA base pairs transcribed—thanks in part to error correction by an RNA polymerase known as pol II, which "backtracks," or reverses, along the transcript to remove misincorporated or damaged nucleotides. A group from the Stanford University School of Medicine has solved the structure of pol II in the backtracked state, providing structural insights about a key mechanism for ensuring accurate transcription."

"Because a low error rate during transcription is critical, pol II is very selective in nucleotide triphosphate (NTP) loading and incorporation; it also uses proofreading to improve overall transcription accuracy. During RNA transcription, pol II occasionally reverse-translocates—or backtracks—along the growing strand of RNA, correcting any mistakes that have been made. The newly created (3′) end of the RNA strand is extruded from the active center of pol II, allowing the RNA transcript to be checked and repaired."​

The question now is that Shannon designed his theory to be used within a digital transmission system, can design be inferred from "pol II" or could it not have evolved with all the rest of the DNA transcription process?

So, knowing there are multiple correction systems, are you sure you want to say there are no correction systems beyond RNA and before protein formation? Are you sure I don't already have a link and am waiting for the best time to post it?

If it were divinely created why would it need any backtracking and repair, which seems to be more of a naturalistic remedial fix, what do you say?

That your understanding of philosophy is not well thought out. I'm guessing you can't think passed your first thought because your adherence to common descent dogma is the only thing that can pacify your abject fear.

Is the scientific work we have just discussed worthy enough in your view to be regarded as authoritative, or would you still scoff at a scientific consensus......?

It is evidence for me, so I guess the question is really why you rather believe consensus when the evidence is the opposite.

Maybe it isn't pure terror; Maybe it's pure hatred of some supreme being that turns you into a babbling fool? You aren't even responding to what I said because I added a trigger word to my quote.

Na, you're deathly afraid. If it were hatred you wouldn't be so consistently funny.

.....Your quick return to a supposed supernatural being rather indicates that science and reality is all too uncomfortable for you. Scientific consensus has to be rebuffed by any means available.

Your non-response to my quote is so immature that one can only imagine that your eyes glaze over at the slightest trigger word.

The truth remains: you don't need to believe in the supernatural [<--- TRIGGER WARNING] just because science shows that mutation plus natural selection is wrong.

I even added a link that could be read fully, please do avail yourself of it. The upshot being that DNA transcription is amazingly accurate with an almost total fidelity, just as I said originally. lain:

No. The upshot of even a *robust* messaging system is that it still needs correction systems and Shannon still applies.

 

[Yorzhik]

He seems intent on believing that DNA started off perfectly formed

Since semantics cannot be measured, all encoded messages are perfect according to Shannon.

I suppose I'll just have to keep reminding you since your reading comprehension might improve with repetition.

and mutations can only degrade the semantic information.

Whether it be semantic information or not, the information can only degrade with noise.

It is no wonder that he has to muddle up this idea with Shannon information to prove a false point.

Since I've just shown how you don't understand the idea you don't qualify to comment on my understanding of the idea.

And as a test to see if this is true, let's see you restate my argument in your own words. I'm betting you won't even try.

It is a shame that YECs cannot be honest brokers - the prevarication and dissembling is something that most Christians would find shameful.

Based on your reply being either intentionally or unintentionally wrong, it shows poor judgement on your part to cast judgement.

It is clear, at least, that Yorz recognises that mutations cause an increase in Shannon information, especially when combined with gene duplications, insertions and chromosome duplications. Since evolution only requires variation in genotype that cause differential survival rates in the phenotype, there is nowhere else to go here. Mutations cause variations, evolution selects those that happen to work. End of story.

I wonder what he'll claim now, seeing that he has proven himself wrong with his own linked sources?

But the highlighted portion has to be supported first. And so far, it is just your declaration that claims that Shannon doesn't degrade the signal in cell messages. Supply some evidence that noise in cell messages normally adds information "that happen to work" if you want to show me wrong. Nothing else will do.

And while you're at it, you'll be showing us how it doesn't apply to all digital communications.

 

[Jose Fly]

It is evidence for me, so I guess the question is really why you rather believe consensus when the evidence is the opposite.

What evidence? I've been watching your conversations for weeks and you haven't posted a single shred of it....not one bit.

You make claims about "genetic information" and relative amounts of it, but can't provide a means by which we would tell which of two genomes has more "genetic information".

You'd think such a fundamental gap in your position would require attention on your part, but as we've seen you just ignore it and hope everyone else does too.

But I guess it does serve as another illustration of how completely useless creationism is.

 

[alwight]

That's like, one of the dumbest and funniest things you've ever said.

You are very entitled to that opinion Yorzhik, but since it was only a response to a very stupid question, I'll not be fretting too much.

Because your criteria was that there be a correction system. Doh!

The bottom line was that what is transcribed matches closely to the original information, just as I already said. That doesn't imply any deliberate design, it implies a natural process that evolved a better transcription process, to fix and repair mistakes, not to combat outside interference from an unpredictable transmission element.
But in any case the point is that I made you go looking for a citing and save me the bother of covering any and all such possible details, as per your usual tactic.
I learnt from it that no transmission losses are addressed only errors in the initial transcription are fixed.
Presumable a divinely created process would simply be perfect and wouldn't need any such secondary fixing, right? Didn't God create perfection?

So, knowing there are multiple correction systems, are you sure you want to say there are no correction systems beyond RNA and before protein formation? Are you sure I don't already have a link and am waiting for the best time to post it?

I wouldn't trust a YEC like you to give any honest factual answers and will have to be coerced into providing a citing that can be scrutinised, which is what happened here, if you still haven't noticed. Else all we get is more smoke and mirrors.

That your understanding of philosophy is not well thought out. I'm guessing you can't think passed your first thought because your adherence to common descent dogma is the only thing that can pacify your abject fear.

I still don't understand this "fear" you seem to think I carry around, but it's probably nothing compared to the fear of your God and His eternal Lake of Fire that might await you should you ever allow yourself to carry around any rational doubt.

It is evidence for me, so I guess the question is really why you rather believe consensus when the evidence is the opposite.

I tend to believe a scientific consensus, with evidential support that I can check, long before I'll ever believe any of your reality denying bald assertions and creationist claptrap Yorzhik, so shoot me.

Your non-response to my quote is so immature that one can only imagine that your eyes glaze over at the slightest trigger word.

The truth remains: you don't need to believe in the supernatural [<--- TRIGGER WARNING] just because science shows that mutation plus natural selection is wrong.

I don't have any better responses to your supernatural YEC nonsense and I don't need any since you can't and won't accept that any rational scientific consensus just might be accurate, because it feeds you with doubt and fear and your YEC tyrannical God will know right?

No. The upshot of even a *robust* messaging system is that it still needs correction systems and Shannon still applies.

Except that it isn't a "messaging system" it is a transcription system as indicated by your own link, or do you want to find a better one now? lain: