Creation vs. Evolution

[6days]

Lets start by asking why you find it difficult to admit that the holocaust was inspired by Darwinian evolution?

Um....because the works of Darwin were banned in Nazi Germany?

That is true that Darwin was one of many banned books, but the question remains.....
Why do you find it so difficult to admit that the holocaust was inspired by Darwinian evolution?

Are you unaware of evolutionists such as Spencer and Haeckel and the influence their belief system had on the Nazi's? Are you unaware of historians saying things like....."struggle, selection, and survival of the fittest..." all were part of the " " doctrine of Germany’s inherent right to rule the world " 1956 Book 'Race and Reich' by J.Tenenbaum

or
1946, Book 'Evolution and Ethics' by A. Keith
"modern eugenics thought arose only in the nineteenth century. The emergence of interest in eugenics during that century had multiple roots. The most important was the theory of evolution, for Francis Galton’s ideas on eugenics — and it was he who created the term “eugenics” — were a direct logical outgrowth of the scientific doctrine elaborated by his cousin, Charles Darwin"

Or perhaps...
You did not know that Hitler "was a firm believer and preacher of evolution. Whatever the deeper, profound, complexities of his psychosis, it is certain that the concept of struggle was important
… his book, Mein Kampf, clearly set forth a number of evolutionary ideas, particularly those emphasizing struggle, survival of the fittest and the extermination of the weak to produce a better society."Biocreation published by Science Press, Author Hickman 1983

And how many atrocities were inspired by belief in gods? Shoot, how many going on at this very moment are a direct result of belief in gods?

Haha.....Sure... Atrocities have been committed for both religion and atheism. But, we are discussing how the holocaust was inspired by Darwinian evolution. And bringing religion into this is funny in a way in that the Nazi's wanted to eliminate religion and Christianity. Ernst Haeckel thought Christianity was a perversion of the natural order. He said Christianity was a perversion because it "makes no distinction of race or of color; it seeks to break down all racial barriers. In this respect the hand of Christianity is against that of Nature, for are not the races of mankind the evolutionary harvest which Nature has toiled through long ages to produce? May we not say, then, that Christianity is anti-evolutionary in its aim?"

Perhaps if Darwin had accepted Christ's example on how to treat minorities the holocaust would not have happened.

 

[6days]

Except there was no scientific or evolutionary basis to call them unfit. It's the equivalent of a person trying to argue that science shows a kilogram of feathers is lighter than a kilogram of steel. And they must have known that given they banned Darwin's actual ideas and publications (they couldn't let people know what the science ACTUALLY said)

Correct that there was no scientific basis.....But, there certainly was an evolutionary basis. Darwin thought white people were more highly evolved than blacks.

BTW..... Good question.... I'm guessing feathers weigh more?? :devil:

 

[DavisBJ]

Perhaps if Darwin had accepted Christ's example on how to treat minorities the holocaust would not have happened.

Are you saying if Darwin had not expressed his views on race, or are you saying if he had not put forth the Theory of Evolution?

 

[6days]

Are you saying if Darwin had not expressed his views on race, or are you saying if he had not put forth the Theory of Evolution?

Correct on both. Had he not proposed that some people are more highly evolved than others...... Had he not suggested things like inferior races being eliminated..... Had He embraced Christ's teachings...it is possible that the eugenics movement and the holocaust may not have happened.

 

[DavisBJ]

Correct on both. Had he not proposed that some people are more highly evolved than others...... Had he not suggested things like inferior races being eliminated..... Had He embraced Christ's teachings...it is possible that the eugenics movement and the holocaust may not have happened.

I don’t know what Darwin’s views on race were founded on. But he presented the Theory of Evolution as a sincere understanding of how part of nature worked. How would the Theory of Evolution have been any different as a function of whether or not Darwin accepted Christ’s example on how to treat minorities?

 

[Tyrathca]

Correct that there was no scientific basis.....

Oh good we agree!

But, there certainly was an evolutionary basis.

And what was this evolutionary basis?

Darwin thought white people were more highly evolved than blacks.

Did he base this on any science? And even if we agree he did think this, so what? No one believes that Darwin was an infallible Messiah/prophet, there are probably a lot of wrong things he believed. There are a lot of wrong things Isaac Newton believed too.

Evolution has persisted because the fundamental ideas he proposed back then have withstood the test of time and research. Not because we worship Darwin and think he could say nothing wrong (even about evolution).

 

[MichaelCadry]

Michael of all you post, this is the most disturbing. You seem to be saying that all disease, all genetic problems, all birth defects are the result of the active intervention by your god. Why then bother to go the a doctor. Your god has done what he wished, you should be thankful for whatever ailment you have.
Let me go upstairs and suggest to my wife that she should have lived with her 2 hips without cartilege and not bothered with surgery. The laughter you hear will be her.

Dear Jonahdog,

These diseases and such are the result of Satan. God allows Satan to trouble the Earth by 1/4 amount. Let your wife know that God helped certain men/scientists to learn and devise a way to help your wife, thus thwarting whatever the devil's intention. So even though the devil can cause death and disease, God also teaches men to help overcome those diseases and death also.

Michael

 

[gcthomas]

Correct on both. Had he not proposed that some people are more highly evolved than others...... Had he not suggested things like inferior races being eliminated..... Had He embraced Christ's teachings...it is possible that the eugenics movement and the holocaust may not have happened.

His writing about human races was to point out how similar they are and how there is more variability within than between races. He had close friendships with people of other races and used this experience to reinforce his opinion that there was no significant systematic differences.

The 'inferior races' statements in Origin are exclusively about plant and animal breeds. The passage I recall was about the races of cabbage.

Finally, attacking the person rather than the theory is a classic case of an ad hom fallacy. In any case, your attacks are at best mistaken, and at worst outright lies. You should abandon your amoral approach to argument and adopt the rigorously honest approach of the scientific atheists here.

 

[Jonahdog]

Dear Jonahdog,

These diseases and such are the result of Satan. God allows Satan to trouble the Earth by 1/4 amount. Let your wife know that God helped certain men/scientists to learn and devise a way to help your wife, thus thwarting whatever the devil's intention. So even though the devil can cause death and disease, God also teaches men to help overcome those diseases and death also.

Michael

ah, now another added to the mix. Never mind Michael, just keep on smokin' that funny tobacco

 

[6days]

Had (Darwin) not proposed that some people are more highly evolved than others...... Had he not suggested things like inferior races being eliminated..... Had He embraced Christ's teachings...it is possible that the eugenics movement and the holocaust may not have happened.

His writing about human races was to point out how similar they are and how there is more variability within than between races. He had close friendships with people of other races and used this experience to reinforce his opinion that there was no significant systematic differences.

I appreciate you defending someone you admire, but Darwin was mistaken on this. He thought that as humans evolved from apes, they branched off into different races. He clearly thought that white people were more highly evolved. And men more developed, more intelligent than women. Science has proven those ideas were wrong.

The 'inferior races' statements in Origin are exclusively about plant and animal breeds. The passage I recall was about the races of cabbage.

It seems that Darwin became increasingly more racist as time went on. In "Descent of Man" Darwin says "At some future period not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes...will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest Allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as the baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla" . (To help you defend him, from EvoWiki... http://evolutionwiki.org/wiki/Darwin_himself_was_racist ) Also, you might read some of his comments about the pygmies.

Finally, attacking the person rather than the theory is a classic case of an ad hom fallacy. In any case, your attacks are at best mistaken, and at worst outright lies. You should abandon your amoral approach to argument and adopt the rigorously honest approach of the scientific atheists here.

Darwins false ideas about human evolution lead to increased racism, genocide and a push for eugenics. Stephen J. Gould even seemed to agree Darwins false idea about races lead to increased racism.

Compare this statement from Darwin to the statements in the Nazi propaganda video, 'The Smoking Gun'..."We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed."

Darwins son certainly understood that statement and he was a huge promoter of the eugenics movement.....eliminating the unfit. The statement you objected to GC is correct. Had (Darwin) not proposed that some people are more highly evolved than others...... Had he not suggested things like inferior races being eliminated..... Had He embraced Christ's teachings...it is possible that the eugenics movement and the holocaust may not have happened.

 

[MichaelCadry]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY alwight!! MAKE IT COUNT!!
ENJOY YOURSELF 2DAY!!

Much Love And Cheerio, Matey!!

Michael
​

 

[MichaelCadry]

ah, now another added to the mix. Never mind Michael, just keep on smokin' that funny tobacco

Dear Jonahdog,

I don't smoke funny tobacco. What I said in my last post is true and is recorded in the Bible. You wouldn't understand, I guess.

Have A Good Day!

Michael


:rapture:

 

[alwight]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY alwight!! MAKE IT COUNT!!
ENJOY YOURSELF 2DAY!!

Much Love And Cheerio, Matey!!

Michael
​

Thanks again Michael.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Thanks again Michael.

Dear alwight,

You are more than welcome!! Don't forget that this is just the beginning of the day!!

Tons Of Love Coming Your Way!!

Michael

:cloud9: :angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9:

 

[gcthomas]

I appreciate you defending someone you admire, but Darwin was mistaken on this. He thought that as humans evolved from apes, they branched off into different races. He clearly thought that white people were more highly evolved. And men more developed, more intelligent than women. Science has proven those ideas were wrong.

He was quite clear that the differences between human groups were insignificant. And you haven't found a quote to support your assertion despite being challenged on it. No quote, no argument.

"At some future period not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes...will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest Allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as the baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla"

Your quotemine doesn't give any indication of what Darwin wanted to happen - he was just expecting the industrialised nations to wage war on the less civilised. To claim that your quote implies 'desire' on the part of Darwin is dishonest.

You have failed to support your dishonesty with evidence - your amorality and deceitfulness is on show and you should be ashamed.

 

[Jose Fly]

Again I'm still scratching my head over what 6days' point is. All I can figure is that his attempts to argue from science have failed so miserably, his only recourse now is to sling mud at evolution and the scientists who study it.

Makes one wonder why 6days thinks this sort of slimy tactic can't be turned back on him by noting the role German Christianity's antisemitism played in the holocaust, the racist beliefs of some young-earth creationists (e.g., Henry Morris), or the atrocities across the world that are based in belief in gods.

Of course the obvious take-away is that humans do all sorts of terrible, unspeakable things to each other, and will justify them via whatever excuse they can find. But then that's reasonable and fair, neither of which are in 6days' skill set.

 

[6days]

And you haven't found a quote....

I did, but when quotes are provided you call it quotemine.

Your quotemine doesn't give any indication of what Darwin wanted to happen

And nobody suggested that, so you argument is a strawman. The Nazi's used Darwins beliefs about common ancestry, races, selection etc to kill millions.

What I did wonder if the Holocaust might never have happened if Darwin had embraced the teachings of Christ about how to treat women, minorities and the downtrodden.

your amorality and deceitfulness is on show and you should be ashamed.

:think:

 

[Tyrathca]

I did, but when quotes are provided you call it quotemine.

And nobody suggested that, so you argument is a strawman. The Nazi's used Darwins beliefs about common ancestry, races, selection etc to kill millions.

What I did wonder if the Holocaust might never have happened if Darwin had embraced the teachings of Christ about how to treat women, minorities and the downtrodden.

:think:

Given Nazism didn't worship Darwin it probably still would have. Darwin didn't invent the idea of racial supremacy, racism, or genocide.

 

[6days]

Given Nazism didn't worship Darwin it probably still would have. Darwin didn't invent the idea of racial supremacy, racism, or genocide.

However, Darwins ideas popularized....or made it seem that racism, eugenics, genocide was justified by 'science'.

I think you would agree with evolutionist Stephen J. Gould that racism increased by orders of magnitude after Darwin published? The eugenics movement started By Darwins cousin Galton, was influential in the holocaust

"Like scientific racism, eugenics grew popular in the early 20th century, and both ideas influenced Nazi racial policies and Nazi eugenics. " Wiki

Also Tyrathca... Re. your comment that "Nazism didn't worship Darwin"... That may be partially true, but there certainly were influential people within Germany such as Haeckel, Spencer, Huxley and others who loved Darwins ideas. Haeckel loved Darwinism so much that he stooped to fraud to promote the belief system. And Darwin praises Haeckel for his work in "Nazi biology".

 

[MichaelCadry]

He was quite clear that the differences between human groups were insignificant. And you haven't found a quote to support your assertion despite being challenged on it. No quote, no argument.



Your quotemine doesn't give any indication of what Darwin wanted to happen - he was just expecting the industrialised nations to wage war on the less civilised. To claim that your quote implies 'desire' on the part of Darwin is dishonest.

You have failed to support your dishonesty with evidence - your amorality and deceitfulness is on show and you should be ashamed.

Dear gcthomas,

I believe that 6days is correct. You just don't want to hear it or acknowledge it, seemingly. You sure expect a lot out of 6days and he keeps on giving, but you all keep on trying to shoot him down. I wonder if there is ANYTHING we could ever say to convince you all.

Warm Regards & Cheerio!!

Michael