Creation vs. Evolution

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alwight

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My main problem is his own: that there were too many 'systems too wondrous' to have developed by mutation.
An argument from personal incredulity is a fallacy, but you also don't seem to understand that mutation is only a mechanism that brings about a random change, it's natural selection over time and generations that eventually brings about the evolutionary changes that you find so wondrous.

Either you believe in tons of time, as in Hinduism, or you reverse your rate x time numbers and believe in an instant rate of intelligent development (creation). So enjoy your Hinduism; it is fraught with despair. Which of course is a horrible thing to say to another person, but what choice do you give?
Does an intelligent designer/creator really provide a satisfactory explanation? For me such a creator only creates more questions, but then perhaps your desire to understand stops there, and the creator of the creator doesn't particularly interest you, ignorance must be such bliss? :plain:
 

6days

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It was only creationists who actually need any difference, macro evolution is simply joined up micro evolution.
They are not even terms that most Bublical creationists use.
There is emperical science, where we can observe rapid adaptaion of organisms based on pre-existing genetic info and mechanisms. These changes are always within God's created kinds.
Evolutionists BELIEVE that given enough time (once upon a time)...enough mutations... a bacteria can become a biologist.
 

6days

New member
My personal belief would be that I don't know where exactly life began, but that at some point simple, multicellular ocean-dwelling creatures arrived. ...
This chart also seems to pretty closely mirror my thoughts:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/819qsVUaDHL._SL1200_.jpg
However....science indicates our universe was designed. Science indicates that life can't come from non life. Science indicates that the best explanation of the evidence is that in the beginning, God created.
 

alwight

New member
They are not even terms that most Bublical creationists use.
There is emperical science, where we can observe rapid adaptaion of organisms based on pre-existing genetic info and mechanisms. These changes are always within God's created kinds.
Evolutionists BELIEVE that given enough time (once upon a time)...enough mutations... a bacteria can become a biologist.
Your wisdom of supernaturally created DNA is only exceeded by your knowledge of what "evolutionists" believe 6days, and no doubt your personal beauty too. :)
 

iouae

Well-known member
I knew this would happen, you're simply going to beat about the bush obfuscating, picking holes, tedious minor nit picking etc. :doh:

You surely must grasp enough about Darwinian theory to understand why it is at least found to be a convincing explanation of the evidence or you'd be talking about that rather than the suitability of a particular chart.

Why don't you explain your main difficulty with Darwinian evolution (including common descent!) so that we can talk about that rather than the clarity of a particular chart?

On this one btw you can zoom in as much as you could possibly wish for:
http://www.open.edu/openlearn/nature-environment/natural-history/tree-life

I am missing a plug in so cannot look at that chart.
But I can see hundreds of others out there?
Why is finding a chart such a problem folks?

Why don't you tell us your definition of evolution Alwight, and a tree of life I can see?

I honestly do not know why agnostics/atheists/evolutionists are so hesitant about committing themselves to a stated belief as to how all present life got here?

I want to find out if folks believe in evolution because the Tree of Life makes logical sense, or they believe and could not care less what the tree says. Or they believe because that is the only option for atheists?
 

alwight

New member
I am missing a plug in so cannot look at that chart.
But I can see hundreds of others out there?
Why is finding a chart such a problem folks?

Why don't you tell us your definition of evolution Alwight, and a tree of life I can see?

I honestly do not know why agnostics/atheists/evolutionists are so hesitant about committing themselves to a stated belief as to how all present life got here?

I want to find out if folks believe in evolution because the Tree of Life makes logical sense, or they believe and could not care less what the tree says. Or they believe because that is the only option for atheists?
I simply find Darwinian evolution is rather more of a rational and reasonable explanation of all the evidence than in supposing that as soon as the evidence begins to thin out a bit then that would be a convenient point to introduce the supernatural and miraculous to fill in the gaps. If I'm wrong then please do supply the evidence for a miraculous creation, or of course you could show us where Darwin got it so wrong?

PS do get the plug-in or is there none so blind as those that want to be?
 

TheDuke

New member
"Evolution" is defined as a change in allele frequencies in populations over time.
Let me try again to show you why this definition of [Darwinian] evolution is utterly inadequate.

Suppose your wife gives birth to a baby boy with blue eyes.

You have just increased the frequency of the recessive gene for blue eyes in the population.
You have also increased the Y chromosome genes.
But no evolution occurred, except by your definition.

Or let us say folks feel the world is dangerous and start breeding pit-bulls. While celebrities want toy dogs so other breeders start breeding miniature dogs. This is not evolution, except by your def.

Or suppose a plant with green leaves suddenly has a mutation for variegated leaves. That would be evolution by your def, and nobody else's. Certainly no scientist would claim they have observed/proven [Darwin's Theory of] evolution, since we have had mutations forever.

Creationists claim that from the Ark, 2 of each land animal gave rise to all other land animals today, through mutation, genetic drift, etc. Even Darwin's finches arose from isolation in the 4400 years since the flood.

The Theory of Evolution is supposed to include something like the following ...
... a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state ... a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations...
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evolution

By your current definition, nobody would be disagreeing on the topic of evolution, since you have left out all the controversial bits concerning origins.

Darwin observed micro-evolution and postulated macro-evolution, from one ancestor.


Time to define terms and clarify the thinking here.

When people talk about "evolution" in the context of "evolution vs. creation" what they mean is common descent by means of natural selection acting on variations. That is what I mean when I say "evolution."

But when pressed for evidence of common descent, the evolutionist starts talking about natural selection. In other words, the evolutionist is talking about the mechanism, not what actually happened.

No creationist I know disagrees with natural selection. The disagreement is on whether all life biologically descended from a common ancestor.

So next, the evolutionist starts talking about the fossil record, claiming it provides evidence for evolution. The creationist points out that it doesn't, and usually the debate either ends or starts over at the beginning.



So guys,

Let's indeed clarify the terms, shall we.

Evolution - gradual change over time
Biological evolution - gradual change of life forms over time

The concise and more specific definition that is generally accepted in science, is the one Jose gave earlier, which takes into account our understanding of genetics. This knowledge wasn't available during Darwin's day, and yet biological evolution was still perceived. What a world.


The issue that you have (which you seem to think is somehow controversial) is about Common Descent. Now you are perfectly at liberty to declare the involvement of one deity or another in natural processes, but please have the decency to admit that you're just acting upon pure faith and not scientific curiosity, because otherwise, you'd find nothing wrong with common descent and the tree of life.


Since you seem to take issue with the term itself, let's for the purpose of this discussion rename evilution and just call it "descent with modification" or DM for short.

1) DM is real, we know that, not because of fossils, but rather because of real-time observation of all procreation at work. We can see the differences between members of the same "kind", we can see how characteristics and traits are being passed on to the next generation. We can even manipulate them by selective breeding of more suitable crops, domestication of animals and the harnessing of micro-organisms for industrial catalysis.

2) The brilliance of Darwin - The man didn't get everything right, he was, in fact, quite very far from understanding DM. But the riddle he was able to solve (and BTW he wasn't the only person at the time looking into it, just the one credited for publishing his work at the right time) was the question of what drives DM. Firstly it is the principle of natural selection (which you agree with) and the principle of speciation through population isolation (which I hope you agree with)

3) By categorizing the living beings that we see today, we notice the similarities and use those to assign taxonomic hierarchies based on the traits of the various "kinds". We can confirm these hierarchies by comparing the genetic code of these "kinds". BTW this work began long before Darwin, and even without his publications, there already was great puzzlement because of the obvious similarities between us and apes :)

4) The qualities of DM coupled with our ever increasing understanding of biodiversity permit only one conclusion: rewind a nested hierarchy and you have - A COMMON ANCESTOR. oh the horror!
And here is the big question, how can we be so sure?
Well, insert fossil evidence. The hypothesis of common descent would require there to have existed in the past, species that line up the DM of every extant species and converge the lineages - aka the tree of life!

5) So what do we find? As we all know the rarity of fossilization prevents us from gaining the complete picture. So far, nonetheless, all fossil evidence fits nicely into the tree and there has been no finding to suggest that the model would be inaccurate. Furthermore, the overwhelming similarities of the cellular mechanisms, metabolisms, genetic "semantics" etc cross-validate that all life on our planet has a single origin.
Now, this is the opportunity for you, my fellow creationists, to come up with evidence of your own, that would not only neatly explain all the known life forms, past and present, but would also demonstrate conclusively that common origin cannot be true.


Until you do, just give us all a break and accept the scientific consensus!


Cheers


PS: "whether all life biologically descended from a common ancestor"
Strictly speaking, this is irrelevant to DM and common descent, as the theory would easily allow for multiple, parallel, trees of life to exist. Moreover, when we go down to single-celled organisms the tree becomes more of a "shrubbery" anyway.
Unfortunately for you, the genetics of very much nearly all organisms alive today is absolutely identical, which does not conclusively prove but renders a SINGLE common origin the likeliest explanation :)
 

TheDuke

New member
They are not even terms that most Bublical creationists use.
There is emperical science, where we can observe rapid adaptaion of organisms based on pre-existing genetic info and mechanisms. These changes are always within God's created kinds.
Evolutionists BELIEVE that given enough time (once upon a time)...enough mutations... a bacteria can become a biologist.


So you've never heard of ring species, have you?

And no, what evolutionists believe in, is that no matter how much time passes, a creationist could never become an open-minded honest member of our society.
 

alwight

New member
Haaa.....Come on alwjght.
That isn't logical.
Yes codes are information.
But codes do not exist natually..
Every ....EVERY code has been created.
Death-Valley-Mesquite-Sand-Dunes-600x400.jpg

A sand dune is coded information on which way the wind blows.

A dog turd is coded information on the size of the dog and what it ate.
(I'll spare us a picture of one.:))
 

alwight

New member
I really think you will need to do more than simply assert that

"I do not believe evolution because this supposed/theoretical order of evolution (tree of life)...
...does not match the actual fossil record."

Do some heavy lifting, specifically what doesn't match, might do it.
 

DavisBJ

New member
It is almost comforting to know that 6days has this “science supports the Biblical Model” mantra that he treats us to on such a regular basis. Out of the premier academic institutions across the world that are renowned for graduating what become the leading scientists, I don’t know of a single one that concurs with 6days’ aberrant claim. Maybe someday he will surprise me and show that there is a group of qualified scientists who are showing that they use science that is free of prior commitments to dogma and yet show that 6days’ mantra is more than an ephemeral wish. That day hasn’t happened yet.
 

Jose Fly

New member
You need a better definition of "evolution".

No, it's how the word is defined in biology. You're just not understanding it.

What you defined as "evolution" is what science calls "genetic drift", one of the supposed mechanisms producing evolution.

No, the two aren't the same at all.

There is a difference between the process and the result, just as there is a difference between baking and a cake.

I knew your definition of evolution was wrong the moment I read it because I agree with genetic drift - that occurs - but evolution does not.

And I think the sources I quoted are on my side saying that what you call evolution is not evolution.

Or, population dynamics is NOT equal to evolution.

I'm not sure what else to say here. You're just wrong, and I've tried to explain it to you but you refuse to even try and understand. If that's the case (you are deliberately choosing to remain ignorant), there's no point in continuing.
 

iouae

Well-known member
I really think you will need to do more than simply assert that

"I do not believe evolution because this supposed/theoretical order of evolution (tree of life)...
...does not match the actual fossil record."

Do some heavy lifting, specifically what doesn't match, might do it.

Arthropods and fish - very complex, high on the tree of life (TOL), found early Cambrian e.g. Trilobites.

Flatworms, low on TOL, found late in fossil record.
 
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