Creation vs. Evolution

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Greg Jennings

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The same reason they lie about other things. To get people to buy into it so they can keep getting grant money.

Come on, man. You know that you can't be taken seriously as a scientist these days without researching and publishing, and that takes a lot of money.



Of course it is. That's why I said it's a bait and switch. The definition is innocuous, almost tautological. But what the textbooks actually teach is common descent.
Dude. No. They. Don't. There is a section in every textbook about hypotheses about the origin of life. It states at the beginning and end that there is some evidence in favor of this hypothesis or that one, but that there isn't enough evidence to say definitively that all life either came from a single organism or multiple ones.

Seriously, have you ever taken a course in evolutionary theory? It might be helpful.

Translation: you're actually thinking about things you haven't before. That's good.
I'm not sure that translation is accurate
 

badp

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Dude. No. They. Don't. There is a section in every textbook about hypotheses about the origin of life. It states at the beginning and end that there is some evidence in favor of this hypothesis or that one, but that there isn't enough evidence to say definitively that all life either came from a single organism or multiple ones.

What's your point? I didn't say anything about single vs multiple ancestors. That's splitting hairs anyway. The point is the textbooks give one definition, but teach something completely different.
 

Greg Jennings

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What's your point? I didn't say anything about single vs multiple ancestors. That's splitting hairs anyway. The point is the textbooks give one definition, but teach something completely different.

Well I guess you think that descent with modification is equal to common descent. There is a subtle difference, and that has to do with the point at which the descent begins.

I'm at 6% battery. Talk to ya later babe
 

iouae

Well-known member
The following essay was published in Science and Creationism (1984).

by Isaac Asimov

» The argument of belittlement.

Creationists frequently stress the fact that evolution is "only a theory," giving the impression that a theory is an idle guess. A scientist, one gathers, arising one morning with nothing particular to do, decided that perhaps the moon is made of Roquefort cheese and instantly advances the Roquefort-cheese theory.

A theory (as the word is used by scientists) is a detailed description of some facet of the universe's workings that is based on long observation and, where possible, experiment. It is the result of careful reasoning from these observations and experiments that has survived the critical study of scientists generally.

For example, we have the description of the cellular nature of living organisms (the "cell theory"); of objects attracting each other according to fixed rule (the "theory of gravitation"); of energy behaving in discrete bits (the "quantum theory"); of light traveling through a vacuum at a fixed measurable velocity (the "theory of relativity"), and so on.

All are theories; all are firmly founded; all are accepted as valid descriptions of this or that aspect of the universe. They are neither guesses nor speculations. And no theory is better founded, more closely examined, more critically argued and more thoroughly accepted, than the theory of evolution. If it is "only" a theory, that is all it has to be.

Creationism, on the other hand, is not a theory. There is no evidence, in the scientific sense, that supports it. Creationism, or at least the particular variety accepted by many Americans, is an expression of early Middle Eastern legend. It is fairly described as "only a myth."

The above is a lot of who-shot-John (to quote Judge Judy)

It is as dishonest an answer as Asimov accuses Creationists of using.

"For example, we have the description of the cellular nature of living organisms (the "cell theory");"

IA is deliberately mixing up respectable "theory" with speculative "theory" to hope we will forget that NOT ALL THEORY IS THE SAME.

We see cells under the mic. Thus cells are FACT. The finer details of how they function is still "theory"


..." of objects attracting each other according to fixed rule (the "theory of gravitation");

I have never heard gravitation called a "theory" except at university comparing it with say Einsteins work. It is usually called "Newtons LAW of universal gravitation" since we can SEE a ball fall down, no matter how often we repeat the experiment.

..." of energy behaving in discrete bits (the "quantum theory");"

This is usually called "quantum physics" which has its own theoretical speculations.

This "theory" is harder to prove and we would be right to entertain a few doubts as to the absolute credibility of quantum theory.
There are some areas very credible, others not, depending on the theory.

..."of light traveling through a vacuum at a fixed measurable velocity (the "theory of relativity"), and so on."

Much of this has been confirmed by Einstein making predictions, experiments performed, and much is accepted as true. We are doing experiments on"gravity waves" in space, as we speak, since these were postulated by Einstein, but so far not definitely proven. So here we entertain doubt till proven.

To put "The Theory of Evolution" on a par with proven respectable mainstream physics, is a laugh, and dishonest.

To see cichlids undergoing diversification, or finches on islands having specialised beaks does not PROVE evolution.

I cannot think of a way I could ever PROVE creation.
Likewise I cannot think of a way evolutionists could ever PROVE evolution.

Both could examine the same fossil record and come to their BELIEF as to what the rocks are saying. That would be the only truly honest position. It takes faith to be a believer, and it takes faith to be an evolutionist.
 

alwight

New member
The same reason they lie about other things. To get people to buy into it so they can keep getting grant money.
The stupidest/saddest thing about creationists when the come out with such bilge as this is that they are apparently compelled to believe that scientists who train hard for many years and get good degrees are not particularly interested or excited by the science and discovery of the previously unknown, or in ethical standards of practice, no it's only the money they're interested in. Well perhaps you shouldn't judge everyone by your own mercenary standards?
 

badp

New member
Well I guess you think that descent with modification is equal to common descent. There is a subtle difference, and that has to do with the point at which the descent begins.

That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. Common descent is not the same as descent with modification. Do you know what I mean when I use the term "bait and switch?"
 

badp

New member
The stupidest/saddest thing about creationists when the come out with such bilge as this is that they are apparently compelled to believe that scientists who train hard for many years and get good degrees are not particularly interested or excited by the science and discovery of the previously unknown, or in ethical standards of practice, no it's only the money they're interested in. Well perhaps you shouldn't judge everyone by your own mercenary standards?

You aren't well versed in politics.

Many scientists do go into scientific fields because they're genuinely interested in making new discoveries. But before they even get to grad school, their professors make it very clear to them that they will tow the accepted line or they will not graduate.

If they decide to play the game and graduate, they had better not challenge the prevailing theory or they will not be given grant money.

No grant money => no research => no discovery.

It's not that all scientists are participating in some grand conspiracy. It's that they're choosing what they see as the lesser of two evils.
 

alwight

New member
You aren't well versed in politics.
I've had plenty of experience of creationist conspiracy theories.

Many scientists do go into scientific fields because they're genuinely interested in making new discoveries. But before they even get to grad school, their professors make it very clear to them that they will tow the accepted line or they will not graduate.
Hogwash, that's just something you are compelled to conclude else why would science be so contrary to your creationist beliefs? It must be that science conspires against you rather than has any honest interest in the truth and genuine fair minded endeavour, right?

If they decide to play the game and graduate, they had better not challenge the prevailing theory or they will not be given grant money.

No grant money => no research => no discovery.

It's not that all scientists are participating in some grand conspiracy. It's that they're choosing what they see as the lesser of two evils.
:kookoo:
 

badp

New member
Hogwash, that's just something you are compelled to conclude else why would science be so contrary to your creationist beliefs? It must be that science conspires against you rather than has any honest interest in the truth and genuine fair minded endeavour, right?

You seem to think that most scientists would rather be broke than sell out.
 

Jose Fly

New member
IA is deliberately mixing up respectable "theory" with speculative "theory" to hope we will forget that NOT ALL THEORY IS THE SAME.

Sorry, but your say-so is only meaningful to you.

We see cells under the mic. Thus cells are FACT. The finer details of how they function is still "theory"

And by the same token, we see populations evolve, thus evolution is a fact. The finer details of how that evolution takes place is a theory.

And your use of "still a theory" only betrays your ignorance of the very subject you're trying to act like an expert in.

To put "The Theory of Evolution" on a par with proven respectable mainstream physics, is a laugh, and dishonest.

I'm sure that's what you believe, but that only matters to you.

To see cichlids undergoing diversification, or finches on islands having specialised beaks does not PROVE evolution.

So the fact that we see populations evolve doesn't prove that populations evolve? Again, you're coming across as rather ignorant of the very subject you're trying to act like an expert in.
 

badp

New member
Checklist for evolutionists arguing with Creationists:

Appeal to authority - check
Ad hominem - check
Refusal to acknowledge one's own philosophical bias - check
Taking this list and accusing a Creationist of doing the same - not yet, but it's coming :)
 

iouae

Well-known member
The stupidest/saddest thing about creationists when the come out with such bilge as this is that they are apparently compelled to believe that scientists who train hard for many years and get good degrees are not particularly interested or excited by the science and discovery of the previously unknown, or in ethical standards of practice, no it's only the money they're interested in. Well perhaps you shouldn't judge everyone by your own mercenary standards?

All the famous scientists practiced science because they were PASSIONATE about it, not for the money.

Likewise, believers go to church because they are PASSIONATE about Christ.

It's not about the money.

Some of us are PASSIONATE about both science and religion. True story :)
 

iouae

Well-known member
Sorry, but your say-so is only meaningful to you.



And by the same token, we see populations evolve, thus evolution is a fact. The finer details of how that evolution takes place is a theory.

And your use of "still a theory" only betrays your ignorance of the very subject you're trying to act like an expert in.



I'm sure that's what you believe, but that only matters to you.



So the fact that we see populations evolve doesn't prove that populations evolve? Again, you're coming across as rather ignorant of the very subject you're trying to act like an expert in.

You equate population dynamics with evolution. Ouch! :(

You equate population diversification with evolution. Ouch! Ouch!
 

Jose Fly

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All the famous scientists practiced science because they were PASSIONATE about it, not for the money.

Except all those evolutionary biologists; they're just in it for the swag. I know every time I go to an evolutionary biology conference, the parking lot is full of supercars, half the scientists show up in private jets, and there's bling as far as the eye can see. And every night, the Cristal flows like a river.

Ah....the evolutionist life! :chuckle:
 

alwight

New member
You seem to think that most scientists would rather be broke than sell out.
You may not have much passion for anything but paying the mortgage but many people actually do care about what they do, not just how much money it pays.
 

badp

New member
You may not have much passion for anything but paying the mortgage but many people actually do care about what they do, not just how much money it pays.

You still don't get it. The scientist has to shut up and obey or else he can't pay the mortgage, nor can he do any science.
 

iouae

Well-known member
Um no....I equate populations evolving with evolution. Crazy, huh? But then, that's just how conspiracies work. :thumb:

I would also equate populations evolving with evolution.
But when I see them diversify and varieties increase or decrease as a %, then I am not looking at evolution.

You should pay more attention at your evolution seminars.
Or if they teach that there, then shame.
 

alwight

New member
You still don't get it. The scientist has to shut up and obey or else he can't pay the mortgage, nor can he do any science.
I'm not saying that in some cases that has never happened, but the truth here is that this is only what a creationist is compelled to believe, that somehow science as a whole conspires to mislead us all, because your YEC beliefs must never be allowed to be shown as plain wrong.
 
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