Creation vs. Evolution

[patrick jane]

Alwight,

who or what do you think CAUSED this Big Bang to happen out of the blue. Do you think some hydrogen molecules caught fire? Where did those hydrogen molecules come from?? Where did the original building blocks come from?? How the Earth got formed, along with Mercury and Venus, etc. What caused gravity or electromagnetic force. Do you think these all came to be by themselves?? And a moon or moons around each planet to Earth, but not Venus or Mercury yet?? What do you think determines this? There is a genius behind all of this who you don't want to acknowledge. He is Great, Powerful, and Omnipotent. He has an Incredible Imagination. He is a Master Chemist and Biologist, and Architect. Who do you think made the remainder of the Universe outside of our Milky Way Galaxy? Do you actually think these things happened by themselves, without a Creator. Think about it long and hard. You can't see the oxygen in the air, but it is there. The same with carbon dioxide, but it is there. You can't see God, but He is there. You can't see the wind, but you can feel it's effect. Some things are unseen and some things are seen. You've got to consider some of these questions and delve deep to consider that there may indeed be Divine Creator.

I wish I could nominate this for POTY or at least POTD !!! Great post Michael !!

 

[DavisBJ]

We agree. Atheist, creationist, vegetarian, Muslim etc all perform science in the same manner.

We don’t agree. If we all perform science in the same manner, then why are there organizations who pointedly claim they are supporting creationism, and yet diverge wildly from mainstream scientists in their conclusions about the age of the earth and universe, geology, and Darwin’s theory?

In fact..... science can be / should be another means of worshipping our Creator.

At least you sometimes (like here) make no pretense that science should be an impartial methodology for understanding nature. You want it to be a form of worship of a Creator (Creator as understood by the Hindus, or the ancient Greeks, or ???)

Science is not religion. New technologies and medical advancements are not dependant on beliefs in evolutionism or creationism.

I neither said nor implied that science was religion. I was simply pointing out that in addition to your dichotomy of scientists who believe the Bible is right and scientists who believe the Bible is wrong, there is a huge population of scientists who are in neither camp.

I do recognize many of the names and would consider many of those brothers in Christ...some who have accepted some compromise into their beliefs.

Those who you consider brothers in Christ part with you on whether science supports literal Genesis. Even those who you think may have allowed compromise into their beliefs also part with you on whether science supports literal Genesis. Both are still solidly on my side.

If they have repented of sin and accepted Christ as Savior, then they too would be a brother or sister in Christ with whom I will spend eternity.

Which has exactly zero to do with the fact that they are scientists who part with you on whether science supports literal Genesis.

Some of those you mention or allude to are true believers. Others reject the clear teachings of Christ and the gospel (Such as many of those at Biologos, who are apostate or heretical)

But again you are not speaking to the science, you are addressing their conformance to a theological view. When are you going to actually show that science – the impartial investigation of how nature works – supports the Bible? If you use the “teachings of Christ and the Gospel” as yardsticks for whether they are doing good science, then you have instantly made it into a circular argument. You want what is in the Gospel to determine what is (good) science, and then you claim science supports God’s Word. That’s logical incest.

So far, the best you have done is to call into question the Christianity of those who part with your particular theological views, and you haven’t even pretended to marshal a defense of your claim that science supports Gods’ Word. We are waiting, but how much longer?

Since you are clearly struggling to show that science, free of any prior religious influence, supports a literal reading of Genesis, then let me pose an alternate way of considering the question. If I unexpectedly inherited a very substantial sum of money, I might want to finance a permanent human settlement on Mars. I can envision such an effort demanding the top scientific talent in a variety of scientific disciplines.

As the recent movie “The Martian” so aptly demonstrated, a really good understanding of biology would be crucial. We really don’t know a lot about Martian earthquakes, deep mineral deposits, and such, so a comprehensive understanding of geology is in order. Absent some of the natural radiation protection the earth’s environment provides, we need some well qualified scientists in astrophysics, planetary physics, and geophysics. The list goes on and on. Bottom line, I will need to hire the cream of the crop across a lot of the scientific spectrum, so I want to know what Universities are recognized as consistently graduating a stellar crop of scientifically productive PhDs each year. I imagine MIT, Yale, CalTech, Harvard, Cambridge, UCLA, Berkeley, and Stanford would be on the list.

But of incidental interest, I wonder what these scientifically productive schools teach when it comes to the Theory of Evolution. Care to take a guess? Or how about the length of geologic history? Evidence of a world-wide deluge within the last 6,000 years? Age of the Sun? Thermodynamic measurements that lend support (or disproof) to the Big Bang?

Remember, your claim is that science supports God’s Word. If you know of a source having a better record of scientific productivity than the premier Universities that train the elite of the scientific students, then I am most willing to hear you out.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Alas, I had hoped that you would stick with this thread just a while longer – less than two months. I thought that as a true “last post” on New Year’s Eve you could confess that you had a great time stringing all of us on with your fascinating and fanciful story of the rapture occurring before year’s end. But instead of being one of the three white knights sent to the try to save the world as spoken of in Revelation, you say you are going to just slither away, not unlike that famous talking reptile in a Garden of Eden tree. You force me to revise my hopes that I actually conversed online with a specific hero mentioned in God’s Word, and replace that with the admission that I have been nothing but another dupe of yet another con man wearing the garments of Christianity. Well, I guess I can at least say I was the friend of a con artist. Good bye, good buddy.

Dear DavisBJ,

You make me feel terrible about leaving. For every post you write to me, I have to answer 9 others from other people. It's a job. No one seems to understand that. I made a mistake by trying to fix a date when Jesus would return and so did many churches, and organizations. We should have known better. No one knows except God. That's what He's proven to us all. I will never date it again!! But I still do believe that it is very soon. I am not a con artist, just because I want to be relieved of my duties as a witness with my testimony of what I have seen and heard. None of that has changed. There are many others who are glad to hear my words, while here, I am held in derision. I am far from being a con artist. That you will find out to be untrue. Don't ask me when. That's what you all did last time and made me try to put a date on things. It really isn't my fault that I had to put a date on things. It's everyone elses' fault. I will still pop in like now and answer some posts. But I will not do it unless I have time. During the week, I will find less time compared to today, on Sunday. Well, DavisBJ, I care about you a lot and I'm not saying good bye. Just a change is needed. You will notice it during the following week.

Bless Your Heart!

Michael

:cloud9: :cloud9:

 

[MichaelCadry]

I'm sure Al won't mind if I interject on a couple of points :think:



Yet you seem to have no problem with God "all just happened by itself"? After all, if this God is real it must surly be far more complex than its creation? So by your own argument he, she, it must itself have been created? Or do you mean nothing happens all by it self except for God? If something can happen "all by itself" then why not the universe"? At least we all accept that the universe is real.



Totally agree. There's no way Gods existence could just happened by itself. Your own argument doesn't allow for it.




Clearly then God must have been supernaturally created? If your logic is sound there is just no way around it :rapture:



I dunno about Al but I'm convinced. God is too complex for it to have happened on it's own. Good job :thumb:

Dear Hedshaker,

You are right! We are not told how God came to be. Just that He was from the beginning. There is no information given before that time. It says God always existed and has no beginning and no ending. I believe that He has no ending, so I can handle that He has no beginning, if that's what He proclaims. Yes, God is much more incredible than ALL of the things He has created. He is AWESOME!! And definitely complex!! Thanks for the thumbs up!!

Many Blessings From The Good Fairy,

Michael

 

[patrick jane]

Dear Hedshaker,

You are right! We are not told how God came to be. Just that He was from the beginning. There is no information given before that time. It says God always existed and has no beginning and no ending. I believe that He has no ending, so I can handle that He has no beginning, if that's what He proclaims. Yes, God is much more incredible than ALL of the things He has created. He is AWESOME!! And definitely complex!! Thanks for the thumbs up!!

Many Blessings From The Good Fairy,

Michael

hi

 

[MichaelCadry]

I didn't know TOL took so much of your life away, but you sound like like you really do need a break. Your thread will always be yours and I nominate 6 days and Davis BJ to head it up.

There are many other contributors also and your thread will stay alive. I'll post on it to keep it active too. You were the first one to show an interest in me and I won't forget you, stay in touch.

Dear patrickj,

You are always so refreshing and good to hear from!! Yes, this thread takes up lots of time. But, it's Sunday, so I do have some time today. I didn't get to play my guitar and sing, but soon I will. Thank you for wanting to keep this thread alive. I just want to post here sometimes, but not all of the time. Yes, I needed a break. It gets frustrating sometimes. Today we had Sherried Chicken. I make it with lots of garlic, olive oil, tarragon, vinegar and Sherry wine. It's delicious. Takes a couple hours, but it's really palatable. Delicious!! Will chat with you soon, Patrick. I'm not giving up. Just taking a break. Whatever posts I do not answer tonight will just not get an answer until 2morrow or the next day. Sometimes I get pages of posts behind and it's impossible to catch up. So then, I just have to ignore some pages of posts and I truly hate to do that. People post and deserve to have acknowledgement and a post back to them. You can be sure that I will NEVER FORGET any of YOU!! I have a big heart and lots of love indeed. Well, much love going out to you and you stay cool. My twin brother!! Keep smiling!! You have a wonderful smiling face!! Looks just like me 20 years ago.

God's Best For You Always,

Michael

:angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9: :cloud9: :rapture:
​

 

[MichaelCadry]

I wish I could nominate this for POTY or at least POTD !!! Great post Michael !!

Dear patrick jane,

Thank you so much for liking my post. I didn't know it would be accepted well, but I just wrote what was in my heart and soul. God will make things right! I have to count on Him! Otherwise, this is all in vain. And I know I can count on Him, because He ACTUALLY Exists!!

May God Be With You And Your Loved Ones,

Michael

:guitar: :singer: :angel: :angel: :angel: :rapture:
​

 

[MichaelCadry]

Hi Michael

I think it is wonderful that you care enough to go to that trouble, and I am sure those you cook for are glad too. Sounds pretty healthy too.

I also like adding wine or beer to stews and soup and marinating steak in wine - but mostly I forget to.

Chicken I microwave for 8 minutes, then dip in equal parts ketchup and chutney - then onto the barbecue - turn each side once and its done in half an hour - and sticky delicious. I barbecue with a handful of twigs so its ready for the chicken in minutes, and it gives chicken that smokey taste.

Don't neglect your music.

Thanks for the post.

Dear iouae,

Thank you for the recipe!! We'll see what happens. Barbeque is always fine and tasty!!

Yes, my music makes my spirit and soul feel so good. I sing with a lot of love. I've sang publicly in 3 states: Michigan, Florida and New York. After New York, I had stage fright too badly to continue it. Even Carly Simon and other performers have stage fright, so it's a bummer sometimes. Well, thanks for your post too!!

Much Love From God And Me,

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

hi

Dear PJ,

You must be homeless in a city with snow. That's what I gather from the avatar you have there. Never quit smiling!! That's important, especially if you are a waiter or bartender. Be happy and enjoy life!!

Your Good Buddy,

Michael

:rapture: :rapture: :cloud9: :cloud9:
​

 

[alwight]

Dear alwight,

This is one of the reasons why I don't like to answer posts. It is because I have to debate someone who is very close to me. It will only cause 'bad blood' to come between us.

Hi Michael, I really don't want to cause any bad blood and I don't easily get upset by what other people believe. If I thought my own conclusions were demonstrably misguided or misplaced I might find that somewhat less comfortable.

Alwight, who or what do you think CAUSED this Big Bang to happen out of the blue. Do you think some hydrogen molecules caught fire? Where did those hydrogen molecules come from?? Where did the original building blocks come from?? How the Earth got formed, along with Mercury and Venus, etc. What caused gravity or electromagnetic force. Do you think these all came to be by themselves?? And a moon or moons around each planet to Earth, but not Venus or Mercury yet?? What do you think determines this? There is a genius behind all of this who you don't want to acknowledge.

As you said yourself "who or what(?)". I'm not someone who claims to know who or what, I simply try to understand what is. When people try to tell me that their particular god did it without a shred of specific evidence then I don't find that to be particularly enlightening or convincing. I don't pretend to know how everything originated and nor does anyone else know imo, whether it was a who or a what, nobody knows, particularly those who claim they do.

He is Great, Powerful, and Omnipotent. He has an Incredible Imagination. He is a Master Chemist and Biologist, and Architect. Who do you think made the remainder of the Universe outside of our Milky Way Galaxy? Do you actually think these things happened by themselves, without a Creator. Think about it long and hard. You can't see the oxygen in the air, but it is there. The same with carbon dioxide, but it is there. You can't see God, but He is there. You can't see the wind, but you can feel it's effect. Some things are unseen and some things are seen. You've got to consider some of these questions and delve deep to consider that there may indeed be Divine Creator. Think about it all for a few days. Then, get back to me. I hope we can still remain great friends regardless of the things I have to say sometimes. I value our friendship more than I value this thread.

Michael, I just don't know who or what, but there is an enormous leap from that to YECism and the apparent inerrancy of a particular ancient scripture and a supposed 6000 year old Earth.

Much Love And Respect, Alwight. I'm so glad we got to meet!!

Michael

:cloud9: :angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9:

Same here Michael, the real god or "what" is perhaps rather more special than the one supposed from a literal Genesis.
Al

 

[Hedshaker]

Dear alwight,

This is one of the reasons why I don't like to answer posts. It is because I have to debate someone who is very close to me. It will only cause 'bad blood' to come between us.

Alwight, who or what do you think CAUSED this Big Bang to happen out of the blue. Do you think some hydrogen molecules caught fire? Where did those hydrogen molecules come from?? Where did the original building blocks come from?? How the Earth got formed, along with Mercury and Venus, etc. What caused gravity or electromagnetic force. Do you think these all came to be by themselves?? And a moon or moons around each planet to Earth, but not Venus or Mercury yet?? What do you think determines this? There is a genius behind all of this who you don't want to acknowledge. He is Great, Powerful, and Omnipotent. He has an Incredible Imagination. He is a Master Chemist and Biologist, and Architect. Who do you think made the remainder of the Universe outside of our Milky Way Galaxy? Do you actually think these things happened by themselves, without a Creator. Think about it long and hard. You can't see the oxygen in the air, but it is there. The same with carbon dioxide, but it is there. You can't see God, but He is there. You can't see the wind, but you can feel it's effect. Some things are unseen and some things are seen. You've got to consider some of these questions and delve deep to consider that there may indeed be Divine Creator. Think about it all for a few days. Then, get back to me. I hope we can still remain great friends regardless of the things I have to say sometimes. I value our friendship more than I value this thread.

Also for post 13085:

As soon as you can explain where this God came from, without making useless blind assertions, such as always existed etc, then all your questions will be answered.

It's curious that you find the existence of the universe evidence for a creator-god yet never give a thought for where this creator came from.

If you don't know how this God came to be and the Bible authors didn't know either, then how can you know it exists at all. Maybe the formation of the universe came about by natural means given that there' no evidence otherwise.

 

[6days]

*We*agree. Atheist, creationist, vegetarian, Muslim etc all perform science in the same manner.

We don’t agree. If we all perform science in the same manner, then why are there organizations who pointedly claim they are supporting creationism, and yet diverge wildly from mainstream scientists in their conclusions about the age of the earth and universe, geology, and Darwin’s theory?

Fortunately science is not a system of following along with whatever the mainstream flavor is. Science is performed by observing, questioning, experimenting and integrating new knowledge.*

*

At least you sometimes (like here) make no pretense that science should be an impartial methodology for understanding nature. You want it to be a form of worship of a Creator (Creator as understood by the Hindus, or the ancient Greeks, or ???)

Fortunately science is not following along with whatever the mainstream flavor is. Science is performed by observing, questioning, experimenting and integrating new knowledge.

Contrary to your previous point that Christians see science as a threat, I said "Science is no threat in the slightest.In fact..... science can be / should be another means of worshipping our Creator."*Henry Schaefer (Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia): said "The significance and joy in my science comes in those occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, 'So that's how God did it.' My goal is to understand a little corner of God's plan."

Albert Einstein even seemed to think science was a form of worship even though he did not know who the Creator was. He said "One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality."

I neither said nor implied that science was religion. I was simply pointing out that in addition to your dichotomy of scientists who believe the Bible is right and scientists who believe the Bible is wrong, there is a huge population of scientists who are in neither camp.

Sort of true. My point was that it isn't religion against science. *It is competing philosophies...competing views about our origins. Simply putting a white lab coat on does not suddenly turn the person into a blank slate.*

Those who you consider brothers in Christ part with you on whether science supports literal Genesis. Even those who you think may have allowed compromise into their beliefs also part with you on whether science supports literal Genesis. Both are still solidly on my side.

Yes...some of them may be on the ultimate 'losing' team. *They are on the wrong side of scripture and science.

Which has exactly zero to do with the fact that they are scientists who part with you on whether science supports literal Genesis.

There are also physicists, geologists, astronomers, biologists, geneticists etc who agree with scripture that God created everything in six literal days.*

When are you going to actually show that science – the impartial investigation of how nature works – supports the Bible? If you use the “teachings of Christ and the Gospel” as yardsticks for whether they are doing good science, then you have instantly made it into a circular argument. You want what is in the Gospel to determine what is (good) science, and then you claim science supports God’s Word. That’s logical incest.

Logical incest??? *Ha

You need to pull the log from your own eye when it comes to impartial investigation. *Generally atheists and agnostics have a philosophical bias as expressed by*Professor Richard Lewontin,"...we have a priori*commitment to*materialism.

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our*a priori*adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation*..."

So far, the best you have done is to call into question the Christianity of those who part with your particular theological views,...

False

I said..."I*do recognize many of the names (who reject or interpret Genesis differently) and would consider many of those brothers in Christ...

I also said there are some apostate or heretical who reject the gospel message of salvation. Rejection of Genesis sometimes leads to rejection of God's Word in its entirety.

*and you haven’t even pretended to marshal a defense of your claim that science supports Gods’ Word. We are waiting, but how much longer?

Either I'm not understanding you...or, that claim is silly. I've often exchanged comments with you and others here how the complexity, sophistication, the language of DNA points to the Creator. We have discussed and argued about which competing view of various things better fits the Biblical young earth view, or the evolutionist old earth view (comets, origin of life, hominids and more)

*...Bottom line, I will need to hire the cream of the crop across a lot of the scientific spectrum, so I want to know what Universities are recognized as consistently graduating a stellar crop of scientifically productive PhDs each year. I imagine MIT, Yale, CalTech, Harvard, Cambridge, UCLA, Berkeley, and Stanford would be on the list.

But of incidental interest, I wonder what these scientifically productive schools teach when it comes to the Theory of Evolution. Care to take a guess? Or how about the length of geologic history? Evidence of a world-wide deluge within the last 6,000 years? Age of the Sun? Thermodynamic measurements that lend support (or disproof) to the Big Bang?

Well the thing is Davis.... if it was an evolutionist hiring for your mission to Mars; or, if it was a creationist.... they would hire the best scientists possible. They would want people who understand science...period. Application forms often want to know your work history, experience and education. Even though evolutionists have incorrect beliefs about the past, they still can use the scientific method and perform good operational science. (Usually ;} )

 

[6days]

As soon as you can explain where this God came from, without making useless blind assertions, such as always existed etc, then all your questions will be answered.

You are illogical my friend..
Without "useless blind assertions" tell us what caused everything to begin that has not "always existed".

We believe based on evidence that the Creator God of the Bible who exists apart from time, has caused everything.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear patrick jane,

Hi Buddy!! Well, I gave it a lot of thought, and since 6days won't take over this thread, then I want you to have it. Do you think you can handle it?? I will probably still be posting almost every day, but you can run the show!! I would give it to both you and DavisBJ, but that might be a problem, considering that he is an atheist. But he is a lovely person, I must admit. OK, PJ, the ball is in your court.

May God Always Bless Your Soul And Heart!!

Michael

 

[Hedshaker]

You are illogical my friend..
Without "useless blind assertions" tell us what caused everything to begin that has not "always existed".

Well, without "useless blind assertions" we don't know anything about pre Big Bang existence, and "we" includes both you and Bible authors. Nor do you or them, or anyone else, have the slightest clue as to what might have "always existed". Claim whatever you want but we all know you don't really know.

Nothing illogical about that....... my friend!

We believe based on evidence that the Creator God of the Bible who exists apart from time, has caused everything.

Assertion by cherished belief, which is not evidence. If that isn't a recognised logical fallacy then it should be. How can something "always" exist "apart from time"? What does "always" mean apart from time? Thanks.

 

[gcthomas]

How can something "always" exist "apart from time"? What does "always" mean apart from time? Thanks.

I've asked this lots of times, but usually the response shows that the logical problem has passed them by completely.

(For those people: always means at all times, so it can't refer to things 'out of time', whatever that means.)

 

[alwight]

You are illogical my friend..
Without "useless blind assertions" tell us what caused everything to begin that has not "always existed".

We believe based on evidence that the Creator God of the Bible who exists apart from time, has caused everything.

You YECs are the ones who have firmly nailed your flags to the YEC pole but I at least have kept my flag nicely folded and uncommitted, because I can honestly say I don't know the ultimate question nor want to pretend I do.
So the onus is rather on you to explain why your flag should be where you nailed it and why a specific doctrine and scripture provides you with such apparent doubtless certainty when surely doubt and uncertainty have at least some role in more rational and (yes) materialistic thinking?

 

[patrick jane]

Dear patrick jane,

Hi Buddy!! Well, I gave it a lot of thought, and since 6days won't take over this thread, then I want you to have it. Do you think you can handle it?? I will probably still be posting almost every day, but you can run the show!! I would give it to both you and DavisBJ, but that might be a problem, considering that he is an atheist. But he is a lovely person, I must admit. OK, PJ, the ball is in your court.

May God Always Bless Your Soul And Heart!!

Michael

Thank you immensely Michael !! I don't know how to run it but I will post on it everyday and keep it current. This will always be your thread; your creation, and it evolved !! See what I did there ? I'll do my best, thank you and God Bless !

 

[patrick jane]

I officially pass the torch !! I certify with TOL as my witness, I'm giving this thread to DavisBJ. That's it, this is now DavisBJ's thread. :rapture:

 

[6days]

Nor do you or them, or anyone else, have the slightest clue as to what might have "always existed". Claim whatever you want but we all know you don't really know.
Nothing illogical about that....... my friend!

Assertion by cherished belief, which is not evidence. If that isn't a recognised logical fallacy then it should be. How can something "always" exist "apart from time"? What does "always" mean apart from time? Thanks.

Evidence my friend.... it is what you don't have. It is why people who don't have the slightest clue invent or even assert scenarios like multivariate. ..cold whoosh...everything from nothing...Quantum fluctuations....etc.

Logic / evidence points towards an eternally existing intelligence... our Creator.
"In the beginning, God created..."