Creation vs. Evolution

[Interplanner]

Like you I don't know what caused the universe. The difference is I admit it and you have cherished beliefs to protect.

But anyway, your god-of-the-gaps argument is not science :yawn:


Where exactly was God's creation factory situated in the eternal "nothing"? Don't tell me.... supernatural magic?

Actually Hed, you swerved into it right there. It is fiat. He can declare the thing into existence. Did someone already say what powers he does or does not have? No. So its wide open. You can see them in Gen 1 by implication or track-record (God said, Let there be light, etc) or later in the Bible you can see them described, but usually in context with some action or another. My point is that they abridge Nature.

I hope you will read the thread on Lewis and the coin. To confine one's self to Nature alone is unreasonable. How do we know absolutely that someone has not come and interfered with the regular placing of coins (in the analogy)? And when we realize that someone has, do we consult with a mathematician about it, or a detective or a psychiatrist (again in the analogy)?

You also have a belief, and good luck with it. Your belief is that the universe is closed to being altered, changed, reordered by a creator or designer. Sorry, but the list of 20 precisely-tuned features by the astronomers Gonzalez and Richards in THE PRIVILEGED PLANET indicates quite an open situation to me. The improbabilities that they could all happen naturally TOGETHER have put so many 0s on my screen that I can't find the end of the number.

Think about your fav mystery stories, FOYLE'S WAR for example. For 80 minutes you "close" the universe and it seems so obvious what happened. What does Foyle do in the last 10? He shows that there were completely different causes going on. Because a good detective works in an open universe. It is nonsense to close it.

 

[Hedshaker]

Actually Hed, you swerved into it right there. It is fiat. He can declare the thing into existence. Did someone already say what powers he does or does not have? No. So its wide open. You can see them in Gen 1 by implication or track-record (God said, Let there be light, etc) or later in the Bible you can see them described, but usually in context with some action or another. My point is that they abridge Nature.

I hope you will read the thread on Lewis and the coin. To confine one's self to Nature alone is unreasonable. How do we know absolutely that someone has not come and interfered with the regular placing of coins (in the analogy)? And when we realize that someone has, do we consult with a mathematician about it, or a detective or a psychiatrist (again in the analogy)?

You also have a belief, and good luck with it. Your belief is that the universe is closed to being altered, changed, reordered by a creator or designer. Sorry, but the list of 20 precisely-tuned features by the astronomers Gonzalez and Richards in THE PRIVILEGED PLANET indicates quite an open situation to me. The improbabilities that they could all happen naturally TOGETHER have put so many 0s on my screen that I can't find the end of the number.

Think about your fav mystery stories, FOYLE'S WAR for example. For 80 minutes you "close" the universe and it seems so obvious what happened. What does Foyle do in the last 10? He shows that there were completely different causes going on. Because a good detective works in an open universe. It is nonsense to close it.

I'll thank you not to tell me what I believe. Thanks.

And you still haven't explained how the god of your beliefs, escapes the burden of existence that you put on everything else. It shouldn't be too difficult since your God (if it exists) is a more complex entity that anything else so it, more than anything, requires a cause.

So, from your own argument, what caused God? Testable evidence only please.

Not interested in bald claims

Last part in bold because that is invariably all I see.

Re your daft quote: "you look at a Rembrandt and think, isn't paint clever,"

-You look at your belief in God and think, wow, isn't magic amazing.- It's exactly the same though I doubt you'll admit it.

 

[Interplanner]

I'll thank you not to tell me what I believe. Thanks.

And you still haven't explained how the god of your beliefs, escapes the burden of existence that you put on everything else. It shouldn't be too difficult since your God (if it exists) is a more complex entity that anything else so it, more than anything, requires a cause.

So, from your own argument, what caused God? Testable evidence only please.

Not interested in bald claims

Last part in bold because that is invariably all I see.

Re your daft quote: "you look at a Rembrandt and think, isn't paint clever,"

-You look at your belief in God and think, wow, isn't magic amazing.- It's exactly the same though I doubt you'll admit it.

So it is OK for you in a closed system to say what is and isn't an open system and what can be there? Ie, you have given yourself permission to tell me what I believe and more--what can actually exist! Interesting but not persuasive.

How would I know what caused God? What I found out by exploring what He did and does is that I don't need to know. Why would I need to? For as small as the earth is astronomically, it is sure populated by people who think they are owed a lot!

By the way, you missed a sublety about the Rembrandt. I'm not looking at my belief in God. Nor is the person in the Rembrandt analogy looking at his enjoyment of Rembrandt. I'm speaking directly in both cases. If you look at my belief in God, you will have 1000 objections for sure. I'm asking you to look at Him.

"Magic" in this sense is very much like that of magic in Narnia. That was Lewis' children's fiction that summarized the Christian message. In the key scene in LION, WITCH AND WARDROBE Aslan (Christ) explains to the children (humanity) how the deep magic (justice, meaning) was unalterable in Narnia, and was written before anyone lived there:

When a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor’s stead,
the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards.
C.S. Lewis, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, p160

That is, God made our world to operate in a certain framework that can't be achieved by Nature, which is merely material and animal. Humans are half nature and half angel, he once said. We aspire to fairness, we are inspired to persist in something we know is right when no one will stand by us, etc. Because there is a God and because there has to be a day of justice before him beyond this life.

 

[Interplanner]

Those 20 precise features of our existence that I mentioned? that's what the Bible refers to as "His handwork." That's the "paint" of the "Rembrandt"; God is the painter. I'm not praising the paint. I'm praising the Painter.

 

[Hedshaker]

So it is OK for you in a closed system to say what is and isn't an open system and what can be there? Ie, you have given yourself permission to tell me what I believe and more--what can actually exist! Interesting but not persuasive.

No, I actually said in one of my posts, and you can check, that you are at liberty to believe whatever you like. I don't care what you believe. What sickens me is this constant pseudo-logic that you guys spout promoting your beliefs as the default position while those who do not subscribe as some how not rational. Your ridiculous Rembrandt quote comes to mind.

How would I know what caused God? What I found out by exploring what He did and does is that I don't need to know. Why would I need to? For as small as the earth is astronomically, it is sure populated by people who think they are owed a lot!

Oh dear. You're joking right? Here is your reply to Alwight that instigated this exchange:

No, but a list of 20 extremely-precise natural conditions for man on earth all having to work properly the first time he breaths or shows his skin should shatter the presupposition that it is not designed, that it is impersonal nature, that it is chance.

At what exact # or % do you say a theory is faith in chance? 51%? How can a hummingbird eat if that tube does not come out properly through his proboscis the first time and everytime?

Are you getting it yet? It's for us to explain in detail every finer nuance of how nature works without you God, but for you, God needs no explanation at all, regardless of the fact that, according to you guys, your God is infinitely more complex than anything in nature since it is your God that is responsible for said nature.

Sorry but no, you do not get a pass on your own logic. Explain where your God came from first and then we can talk about nature. Ok?

By the way, you missed a sublety about the Rembrandt. I'm not looking at my belief in God. Nor is the person in the Rembrandt analogy looking at his enjoyment of Rembrandt. I'm speaking directly in both cases. If you look at my belief in God, you will have 1000 objections for sure. I'm asking you to look at Him.

Look at who? And I assure you there was no subtlety missed by me in your Rembrandt quote, you just don't like it when the same argument is turned on your God-belief..... how awesome must magic be, right?

"Magic" in this sense is very much like that of magic in Narnia. That was Lewis' children's fiction that summarized the Christian message. In the key scene in LION, WITCH AND WARDROBE Aslan (Christ) explains to the children (humanity) how the deep magic (justice, meaning) was unalterable in Narnia, and was written before anyone lived there:

Or what about an invisible sky spirit poofing a whole universe, or a gravity defying walk on water, or instantly making un-fermented water into wine.... need I go on? How about someone coming back to life after being clinically dead for 3 days? The nonsense goes on and on..... and no, I do not believe a word of it. Not a word!

I would say the LION, WITCH AND WARDROBE has nothing on your magic man in the sky.

When a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor’s stead,
the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards.
C.S. Lewis, The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, p160

And?

That is, God made our world to operate in a certain framework that can't be achieved by Nature, which is merely material and animal. Humans are half nature and half angel, he once said. We aspire to fairness, we are inspired to persist in something we know is right when no one will stand by us, etc. Because there is a God and because there has to be a day of justice before him beyond this life.

Bull! This brings us right back to the original questions regarding your pseudo-logic about everything else. Where did your God come from? Who or what created it? ***

I don't believe in pixies, fairies, gods, angels or leprechauns. And that's not to mention ghosts, occult, paranormal activity etc etc etc etc. You might as well don a witch doctor outfit and throw monkey bones or cast a Hex at me. It's all mumbo jumbo. All of it. Every word. Geddit?

Either give a rational, evidence based explanation for the existence of your God, or stop asking for the same regarding what exists in nature without your God.

There is much about nature and reality we do not yet understand, that's true. But luckily we now have a true and tested method for slowly chipping away at these questions. Beliefs without evidence are rejected, for good reason. The mystics and the theists and the prophets and the seers have had thousands of years to present their case. to show their evidence and have provided no answers at all. Therefore it is rational and reasonable to assume they have none.

*** I have asked you the question 3 times now. If you do not at least attempt an answer, with repeatable, testable evidence, then please don't bother replying because I have no intention of wasting my valuable time on this flimflam further.

Regards

 

[MichaelCadry]

When ancients saw meteors they put it together with the darkness areas that they saw and believed that stars (thought to be angels) had burned out. Burned out material is black, like in your campfire. Thus those dark places were where those beings had ended up.

Dear Interplanner,

I'm so thankful for you to be posting here, but I must mention that the only darkness Satan and others will have is darkness in their brains and sight. There will be plenty of light in Hell and in the Lake of Fire. You probably already know that.

Michael

:thumb: :wave2:

 

[MichaelCadry]

i disagree, but it's hard to tell. after all, Adam & Eve displayed extremely poor judgement and decision making skills. having been told from the start the ONE thing they could not do !!

then ONLY Noah and his family were spared. i was speaking more about recent (3000 years) history. we are, as a world, smarter and much more advanced. we are living longer and as i said, IQ's are astonishingly up, all forms of science are more advanced.

unless you want to argue that pre-historic peoples were as advanced. i know the life spans were much longer in the days of Adam and Noah and Abraham etc. but there were no basic knowledge tests and advanced technologies. the Bible doesn't speak of schools, only temples and synagogues -

Dear patrick jane,

I do see what you mean here. We are smarter, wiser in a collective way. Even though our brain is somewhat smaller, it is not a matter of size that measures our intellect whatsoever.

Gonna get some waffles. Back in a while.

Much Love Coming Your Way!!

Michael

:thumb: :cloud9: :angel: :angel: :angel: :cloud9:

 

[alwight]

At what exact # or % do you say a theory is faith in chance? 51%? How can a hummingbird eat if that tube does not come out properly through his proboscis the first time and everytime?

A scientific theory simply stands or falls by testable evidence, having faith in it is not a requirement.
Hummingbirds that can't feed properly will tend not to survive to pass that trait on.

 

[MichaelCadry]

We don't have Labor Day here Michael, but we had August Bank Holiday last Monday. It's still cool for the time of year here but at least it's sunny today.

Dear alwight,

I didn't realize you didn't have Labor Day there today. August Bank Holiday sounds different. Last Monday, eh? Sounds like a 3-day weekend last week, right? It is Autumn there very soon. I'm glad you have a sunny day. I know it's overcast there a lot. We're having Breaded Shrimp and Fries for dinner or else Pizza. Only time will tell. Well, will chat with you soon. In a bit!!

Have An Excellent Evening,

Michael

:thumb: :guitar: :singer: :cloud9: :angel: :angel:

 

[Interplanner]

A scientific theory simply stands or falls by testable evidence, having faith in it is not a requirement.
Hummingbirds that can't feed properly will tend not to survive to pass that trait on.

And where is the tested evidence about the 1st hummingbird? The evidence is they are here and it worked since day 1. There was no adapting or developing. Hard to believe you're a champion of testable evidence.

That's very nice about theories, and what do you do when the precise settings for life on earth of about 20 features from gravity to radiation to UV light have to be 'Goldilocks' for mankind the first day he shows up? Have you seen some of the 000s on these? Just one individual factor will have an improbability of more 000s than I can show in this window. Integrated together! So much for testable evidence! You had to be there the first day it all 'went live.'

This is why we who believe in creation (not specifying young or old) say that, if faith is defined as some degree of leaping against reason, there is quite a bit of faith going on in the evolutionary scheme!

I'm referring to the doc by Gonzalez and Richards, THE PRIVILEGED PLANET. They also helped Stroebel on A CASE FOR A CREATOR.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Michael, science doesn't lie. Yes some scientists have lied, scientists are human beings, but other scientists found them out and that way science itself keeps heading in generally the right direction.
The agenda of science is science, not to falsify religious belief.
Science draws its own conclusions based on evidence regardless of anyone's religious doctrine but if those conclusions happen to contradict a literal Genesis then that is not because of any agenda other than the gaining of real knowledge.
Should a list of false prophets, fake psychics and religious charlatans shatter your religious faith?

Dear alwight,

I know that most scientists are trying to search for the truth. It seems to be the case. I just know there have been a lot of mistakes also, some intentional and some not. No, I'm not going to list them all.

Michael

:wave2:

 

[Interplanner]

Well, you don't actually have a God. What you have is a "belief". Big difference there, though you are entitled to believe whatever you want of course.

Just to keep things clear, HedS, I'm speaking on the presupposition that there is. There's no point in evaluating the Bible unless you realize that is its base; and yet here you are trying to talk to it as though it did not have this base. The Bible would never bother claiming what it does on any other basis.

I hope by saying that that you will see you have one as well. You've been told that it is merely data, that natural data is the only thing out there, but now I hope you will see that there is also a presupposition driving it, and that that gets examined, just as you are examining mine.

When the account of the rescue of a British division at Mons, France, in WW1 by angels was told, skeptics said it was mass hallucination. But we know "that spontaneous unanimity in hallucination is very improbable..." --Lewis "Miracles". "The supernatural explanation is the less improbable of the two." Hallucination by several soldiers as a group is also very improbable.

Since we can't repeat origins, we must decide between probabilities.

 

[Interplanner]

A Nobel prize awaits so get your paper written up. :thumb:


Tis a wonder no one else has done it, no?

F. Schaeffer did. He started from scratch as an agnostic in high school. He was simply honest enough to sit down and do a complete reading of the Bible.

P. Johnson, Stanford U.

_____. An Oxford professor who stopped denying intelligent design after debate with Behe and with Stephen Meier.

L. Stroebel. THE CASE FOR THE CREATOR. Former Chicago homicide investigator.

J. Wells. Molecular and cellular biology.

M. Behe. DARWIN'S BLACK BOX.



Then we have the imponderable declaration of Dawkins to TIME magazine back when he first wrangled with it. 'If there is a god, he would be infinitely more intelligent than what the theologians have been saying.' What's the point of infinite infinity? What anyone can see is that Dawkins was stuck and an infinite God could reasonably be said to have designed and produced what is here. Dawkins problem with those presuppositions is his business, but we are just talking about whether anyone has made the conclusion (even if it was against what they wanted to conclude--ie, Dawkins!).

 

[MichaelCadry]

I don't put any stock in private messages to people from God. It is pointless. I'm referring to scholarship about what ancient writers were saying, what vocab they were using and why. If the places mentioned by Peter were just 'places' in 'souls' then so are angels. Sorry, you're totally off on that. Angels are half divine, half human, and can be corporeal and speak human languages. As you would know if you would listen to your Bible instead of your private messages from God. Failed.

Dear Interplanner,

Just because you think it's so, doesn't mean it is. You don't know my life or what has gone on with me. When you've walked a mile in my shoes, then tell me about it. I've had a number of angels visit me and time will tell if I'm speaking the truth, not you or your opinion, of course. I know you can't believe me. That is a natural response. I don't blame you. I don't expect you to.

Sincerely,

Michael

:wave2:

 

[Interplanner]

Dear Interplanner,

Just because you think it's so, doesn't mean it is. You don't know my life or what has gone on with me. When you've walked a mile in my shoes, then tell me about it. I've had a number of angels visit me and time will tell if I'm speaking the truth, not you or your opinion, of course. I know you can't believe me. That is a natural response. I don't blame you. I don't expect you to.

Sincerely,

Michael

:wave2:

This is not the arena for dragging in personal visions etc. If a letter like 2 Pet 2 mentions something commonly known in Greek mythology as a place where evil super-human entities were confined, then I'm not going to listen to you and your visions to find out what it means. I'll go to the lexicons and historians and archives.

 

[MichaelCadry]

:noway:

:sibbie:

Spoiler

Dear ok doser,

Thanks tons for all of the emoticons. I mean, Interplanner doesn't realize that I can use all of the emoticons I want.

Thanks again!

Michael

:thumb: :wave2: :angrymob:

 

[Interplanner]

Today Hedshaker raised the objection of God having no purpose to his existence and no cause of it. Here are some lines from Lewis' "Dogma and the Universe":

We are in no position to draw up maps of God's psychology, and prescribe limits to his interests. We would not do so even for a man whom we knew to be greater than ourselves. The doctrines that God is love and that He delights in men are positive doctrines, not limiting doctrines. He is not less than this. What more He may be, we do not know; we know only that He must be more than we can conceive. It is to be expected that His creation should be, in the main, unintelligible to us.

 

[MichaelCadry]

My personal favourite is the idea that God just exists without a cause and doesn't come from anywhere. How utterly daft is that? The most powerful entity in existence (according to theists), omni-everything, all knowing, all loving, perfect every way yet simply exists for no reason what-so-ever. No cause, no nothing, exists by default, just because. And stranger still is the apologetic that gives God a get-out-of-the-logic free card. Apparently, God isn't subject to the same logic as everything else because, well because he's God and God, they claim, always existed, even though there is no such thing as "always" in a state of timelessness. That would be a mean trick if it wasn't so ridiculous.

I guess anything is possible when supernatural magic is afoot! At least we know the universe is real :thumb:

Dear Hedshaker,

Hey Buddy!! Just a note. There is no end of Jesus or our eternal lives. They will go on forever as told to us by God. Therefore, there does not necessarily have to be a beginning for God. A circle has no beginning or end, but it still exists. Think outside of the box.

Michael

:wave2: :thumb: :wave:

 

[MichaelCadry]

PJ,
we know Heb 11:3 is there. That's not the question. The question is whether the writer could have meant something as astronomically astute as the fact that brown dwarves are not seen to the human eye--even in places on earth with no light pollution. Yet they become planets.

This is not a pointless question. Over in 2 Peter and in Jude the passages mention the places that are 'blackest darkness' and the ancients distinguished darknesses that they saw in the night sky. Lewis in "Religion and Nature" told his scientist pal that the diminutive size of the earth in the universe was not a recent discovery of the past 100 years: a theologian writing in the 6th century had stated that the earth was a mere mathematical point in a massive universe. So the "ancients" didn't think of the stars as being tiny lights a mile up after all; they weren't as primitive as we thought.

Dear Interplanner,

Hebrews 11:3 could also mean that all of the other galaxies we see are really not there. They just 'appear' to be, like a mirage. Think about it. There's not necessarily any seemingly endless Universe than we know.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

Evolutionists portrayed Neandertals originally as hairy stooped over dimwitted beasts. Science has proven those beliefs we're false.
Ancient man was intelligent.

Dear 6days,

Yes, but modern man has come a long ways, to say the least. Much further than Neanderthal man by far. I guess it matters according to who thinks about it.

Michael

:thumb: :wave2: