Creation vs. Evolution

[6days]

Your god (yourself) may have created with death pain and suffering.
The God of the Bible cursed the completed creation only after man sinned.

That's a modern revision. God, being just, would not punish innocent animals for man's transgressions. Nor does the Bible say that He did. When God speaks of this, He only mentions things that affect humans, not other animals.

You seem to rely on the unscriptural and illogical teaching of Biologos, rather than what God's Word says.

Illogical

For some reason you seem to think God is just using a process of pain, suffering, death and extinctions to create. Yet you call Him unjust for cursing creation with pain, suffering and death.

Unscriptural
The Bible is very clear that innocent animals suffer the effects from mans sin. Evolutionism compromises and destroys the Gospel which starts in Genesis. Innocent and pure animal blood was shed for Adam and Eve's clothing. Innocent blood wad shed to atone for mans sin. And the innocent Lamb of God shed His blood because of my sin.*

 

[alwight]

un-evidenced fountains of the deep? You haven't read about the vast fountains of the deep (giant underground lakes) that farmers tap into to irrigate their crops all across the world? Like the one found in 2013 in Greenland, or the one found in the USA called the Ogallala Aquifer?

I did say "vast un-evidenced fountains of the deep" if you check, which rather implies that I do already accept more regular sized geysers, subterranean water courses and aquifers as factual features of geology.

Geologists are still discovering evidence that supports the biblical flood. Science is just as much faith based as any religion. You place faith in all of those "unfalsified, unchallenged or approved scientific conclusions though you and most of the human race has never observed what has been claimed. You read reports, research papers, experiment notes and must place your faith in the accuracy of said papers because you were not the one doing the experiments, research or observing. That is a lot of faith placed in fallible man....

By all means do cite a source or two and I will see if I agree that anything is evidence of a Biblical global flood.
I don't require any faith to disbelieve, I either believe or not, according to how convincing I find the evidence to be. I have no agenda to see Biblical things where they probably are not.
Scientific conclusions must have evidence and be falsifiable to have any reasonable value, and those that endure and remain supported by evidence become the most convincing for me.

 

[Jonahdog]

un-evidenced fountains of the deep? You haven't read about the vast fountains of the deep (giant underground lakes) that farmers tap into to irrigate their crops all across the world? Like the one found in 2013 in Greenland, or the one found in the USA called the Ogallala Aquifer?

Geologists are still discovering evidence that supports the biblical flood. Science is just as much faith based as any religion. You place faith in all of those "unfalsified, unchallenged or approved scientific conclusions though you and most of the human race has never observed what has been claimed. You read reports, research papers, experiment notes and must place your faith in the accuracy of said papers because you were not the one doing the experiments, research or observing. That is a lot of faith placed in fallible man....

The Oglala Aquifer is a big underground lake? Please provide a citation for the information.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
That's a modern revision. God, being just, would not punish innocent animals for man's transgressions. Nor does the Bible say that He did. When God speaks of this, He only mentions things that affect humans, not other animals.

You seem to rely on the unscriptural and illogical teaching of Biologos,

No matter how you try to change it, God's word doesn't say what you want it to say.

For some reason you seem to think God is just using a process of pain, suffering, death and extinctions to create.

Even many creationists now admit that speciation is a fact, and is a matter of mutation and natural selection.

Yet you call Him unjust

I just told you that He is just. Why even bother trying to say otherwise?

for cursing creation with pain, suffering and death.

I pointed out that the curses He mentioned only affected humans. Why deny the obvious?

The Bible is very clear that innocent animals suffer the effects from mans sin.

Show us that.

 

[The Barbarian]

The Oglala Aquifer is a big underground lake?

That is just flat-out weird. Why would anyone think that?

 

[6days]

By all means do cite a source or two and I will see if I agree that anything is evidence of a Biblical global flood.

"Evidence Suggests Noah's Ark Flood Existed, Says Robert Ballard, Archaeologist Who Found Titanic"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...t-ballard-archeologist-titanic_n_2273143.html
There is lots of evidence the whole world was covered. The Bible, and the creation model, explains that the mountains rose after the flood and deep canyons developed in the ocean to drain water from the land.

You will notice though in the article that the Guardian doesn't understand the 'theory ', thinking it was a local flood.
Evolutionists admit our total planet has been submerged... They just can't admit it was all at once as the Bible says.

 

[6days]

The Bible is very clear that innocent animals suffer the effects from mans sin. Evolutionism compromises and destroys the Gospel which starts in Genesis. Innocent and pure animal blood was shed for Adam and Eve's clothing. Innocent blood wad shed to atone for mans sin. And the innocent Lamb of God shed His blood because of my sin.

Show us that.

"It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.". 1 Peter 1:19

Evolutionism destroys the gospel. Throughout the entire Bible, we see that only spotless unblemished sacrifice can atone for our sin.

 

[Stripe]

If geologists... [speak] then I [jump]

That's because you're a sheep. :sheep:

Go away till you're interested in speaking science.

 

[Ardima]

I did say "vast un-evidenced fountains of the deep" if you check, which rather implies that I do already accept more regular sized geysers, subterranean water courses and aquifers as factual features of geology.

If the aquafiers I mentioned do not count as vast to you then you have an unreasonable deffinition of vast.

By all means do cite a source or two and I will see if I agree that anything is evidence of a Biblical global flood.

If it is you who determines what is considered evidence then no amount of it will matter.

I don't require any faith to disbelieve, I either believe or not, according to how convincing I find the evidence to be.

faith is required for everything; to sit on a chair, to start your car, to book a hotel... I do not need to convince you. Whether you believe or not does not change the truth in the least. It is impossible for you to be objectively convinced when you have already chosen not to believe.

I have no agenda to see Biblical things where they probably are not.

No you dont, your agenda is to ignore all of the evidence that is around you every second of your life.

Scientific conclusions must have evidence and be falsifiable to have any reasonable value, and those that endure and remain supported by evidence become the most convincing for me.

There is nothing in science that can prove macro evolution or creation. All that is observed in science can only tell us what we see now. Objectively, all the scientific observations are is facts about the current world around us. Our subjective interpretations claim those facts as evidence for our own agendas (we all have one whether or not we see or admit it). It is not my objective to convince you one way or another. Only you can be fully convinced in your own mind. That is what faith is.

 

[The Barbarian]

The Bible is very clear that innocent animals suffer the effects from mans sin. Evolutionism compromises and destroys the Gospel which starts in Genesis.

Barbarian suggests:
Show us that.

"It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.". 1 Peter 1:19

So your story is that Jesus is an animal? C'mon. Show us what you claimed.

Evolutionism destroys the gospel.

Evolutionism and creationism do that. But as you know, both of those were invented in the early 20th century by creationists. As you learned, the curse God laid after the Fall was explicitly against us and against Satan, not against innocent animals.

 

[The Barbarian]

There is lots of evidence the whole world was covered.

Your fellow creationists don't agree:

In retreating where we have advanced too far, there is neither compromise of dignity nor loss of strength; for in doing this, we partake but of the common fortune of every one who enters on a field of investigation like our own....

Bearing upon this difficult question, there is, I think, one great negative conclusion now incontestably established -- that the vast masses of diluvial gravel, scattered almost over the surface of the earth, do not belong to one violent and transitory period. It was indeed a most unwarranted conclusion, when we assumed the contemporaneity of all the superficial gravel on the earth. We saw the clearest traces of diluvial action, and we had, in our sacred histories, the record of a general deluge. On this double testimony it was, that we gave a unity to a vast succession of phenomena, not one of which we perfectly comprehended, and under the name diluvium, classed them all together.

To seek the light of physical truth by reasoning of this kind, is, in the language of Bacon, to seek the living among the dead, and will ever end in erroneous induction. Our errors were, however, natural, and of the same kind which lead many excellent observers of a former century to refer all the secondary formations of geology to the Noachian deluge. Having been myself a believer, and, to the best of my power, a propagator of what I now regard as a philosophic heresy, and having more than once been quoted for opinions I do not now maintain, I think it right, as one of my last acts before I quit this Chair, thus publicly to read my recantation.

We ought, indeed, to have paused before we first adopted the diluvian theory, and referred all our old superficial gravel to the action of the Mosaic flood....
(Reverend Adam Sedgwick, 1831, p. 312-314)

Sedgwick taught a single worldwide flood in his geology courses, until the accumulating evidence made it clear to him that such a thing could not be.

The Bible, and the creation model, explains that the mountains rose after the flood

The Bible doesn't say that. In fact, it explicitly says the mountains preceded the flood.

and deep canyons developed in the ocean to drain water from the land.

Show us that in the Bible. You're making it up as you go, again.

Evolutionists admit our total planet has been submerged... They just can't admit it was all at once

See above. Even creationists who are familiar with the evidence admit it wasn't all at once.

as the Bible says.

And as you already know, the Bible doesn't say the flood was worldwide.

 

[6days]

There is lots of evidence the whole world was covered.

Your fellow creationists don't agree

I could quote many scientists who do. But, what matters is.....
What does God's Word say? Genesis 7
all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits. 21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.

The Bible, and the creation model, explains that the mountains rose after the flood

The Bible doesn't say that. In fact, it explicitly says the mountains preceded the flood.

Notice Genesis 6:13... God destroyed the people and the earth.

Psalms 104:8 "The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them."

and deep canyons developed in the ocean to drain water from the land.

Show us that in the Bible. You're making it up as you go, again.

Psalm 104 "You covered it with the watery depths as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.
7 But at your rebuke the waters fled,
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight;
8 they flowed over the mountains,
they went down into the valleys,
to the place you assigned for them.
9 You set a boundary they cannot cross;
never again will they cover the earth."

And as you already know, the Bible doesn't say the flood was worldwide.

Genesis 9;13 "I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth."

The evolutionary 'interpretation' of that verse is God promises never to send any more local floods.

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
And as you already know, the Bible doesn't say the flood was worldwide.

Genesis 9;13 "I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth."

(The word "eretz", meaning "land" is here translated as earth, and properly uncapitalized, since it doesn't mean "Earth.")

And notice even your re-interpretation acknowledges that the mountains existed before any Noachin flood.

 

[6days]

Barbarian observes:
And as you already know, the Bible doesn't say the flood was worldwide.

Sure it does.

(The word "eretz", meaning "land" is here translated as earth, and properly uncapitalized, since it doesn't mean "Earth.")

Yep... It can mean a certain area, But context tells us it was the whole earth... Same as the word is used elsewhere in scripture.\

And notice even your re-interpretation acknowledges that the mountains existed before any Noachin flood.

Reinterpretation?
I just quoted the verses... Notice that God destroyed the earth.

 

[MichaelCadry]

Dear Jonahdog,

You must be misspelling it. The Ogallala Aquifer could cover all 50 states in 1.5 feet of water. Combine that with other water sources around the world, and a barrage of rainfall over a long period of time. Possible melting of the ice on the north and south poles. Anything is possible. It was 6,000 years ago, roughly. I can imagine there are other fountains of the deep also. I suppose the continents were laid out differently back then also. Maybe just one or two continents.

Michael

 

[MichaelCadry]

I could quote many scientists who do. But, what matters is.....
What does God's Word say? Genesis 7
all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits. 21 Every living thing that moved on land perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; people and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.

24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.

Notice Genesis 6:13... God destroyed the people and the earth.

Psalms 104:8 "The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them."

Psalm 104 "You covered it with the watery depths as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains.
7 But at your rebuke the waters fled,
at the sound of your thunder they took to flight;
8 they flowed over the mountains,
they went down into the valleys,
to the place you assigned for them.
9 You set a boundary they cannot cross;
never again will they cover the earth."

Genesis 9;13 "I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth."

The evolutionary 'interpretation' of that verse is God promises never to send any more local floods.

Dear 6days,

You're THE BEST!!! Great post!! It even helped me!!! And remember, 6days, that Noah sent out a bird to bring back a twig if the waters had abated some. And the bird came back the first time without anything. So the earth was covered with water. So it tells you that the birds in the ark survived, but the birds that used to be on earth all died because they could not land in any trees or perch on any mountains. Do you understand what I'm saying here?? That's why Noah had to bring birds into his ark to save them from the flood too.

God's Best For You,

Michael

 

[Stripe]

Context tells us it was the whole earth.

1:1 ἐν ἀρχῇ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν

 

[Jonahdog]

1:1 ἐν ἀρχῇ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν

Well that is certainly impressive. Have you read it in the original Greek or are you just showing off your cut and paste skills.

 

[alwight]

If the aquafiers I mentioned do not count as vast to you then you have an unreasonable deffinition of vast.

The word "vast" is clearly a relative and contextual term. In the context of the whole universe the entire solar system can't really be described as vast. In the context of a supposed global flood here below is a representation of all the Earth's water sitting very comfortably over America. In terms of a global flood am I really being "unreasonable"?

If it is you who determines what is considered evidence then no amount of it will matter.

So in fact you can't show me anything that you consider to be geological evidence of the Bible then?

faith is required for everything; to sit on a chair, to start your car, to book a hotel... I do not need to convince you. Whether you believe or not does not change the truth in the least. It is impossible for you to be objectively convinced when you have already chosen not to believe.

To not do any of these things however does not require any faith. I am convinced of my car's existence therefore I can put my faith in it. But I put no more faith in the God of the Bible than you presumably do in all those other supposed gods that both you and I don't believe in, i.e. none at all.

No you dont, your agenda is to ignore all of the evidence that is around you every second of your life.

Now you're just being silly, my agenda of disbelief, really?
Clearly I have seen the evidence of what you posted here and hereby responded to it, that's how it generally works, hopefully rationally.
However supposing invisible, intangible supernatural entities doesn't come naturally to me or seem particularly rational and nor does it require any evidence.
You may see evidence of your God in what you see around you but I don't, I just recognise the evidence without concluding that any specific god can be deduced from it.

There is nothing in science that can prove macro evolution or creation. All that is observed in science can only tell us what we see now. Objectively, all the scientific observations are is facts about the current world around us. Our subjective interpretations claim those facts as evidence for our own agendas (we all have one whether or not we see or admit it). It is not my objective to convince you one way or another. Only you can be fully convinced in your own mind. That is what faith is.

There is no such thing as "micro or macro evolution" except for creationists perhaps, only evolution which is an evidenced and observed fact as far as I'm concerned, evidence that creationist will rather avoid.
If you have evidence of specifically your God and creation then by all means do present it and I will honestly interpret it as I see it, but not according to any agenda not to believe. My agenda is to believe what actually is true from the evidence rather than what is supposed or believed by faith alone.

 

[alwight]

That's because you're a sheep. :sheep:

Go away till you're interested in speaking science.

Hogwash
Twas a fine October morning,
one September, last July!
The moon lay thick upon the ground,
the mud shone in the sky!

The flowers sang so sweetly,
the birds were in full bloom!
As I hurried down the cellar steps,
to sweep the upstairs room!

The time was Tuesday morning,
on Wednesday, just at night!
I saw ten-thousand miles away,
a house, just out of sight!

Its doors projected backwards.
The front was at the back!
It stood alone, between two more,
and it was whitewashed black!

Amen