Creation vs. Evolution II

[gcthomas]

Mindless nature cannot select anything, by definition a selection requires mind.

--Dave

That's it? Your best contradiction?

If you'd actually read Darwin's book, you'd realise that the term 'natural selection' was chosen specifically to contrast with the 'artificial selection' that was discussed at length at the start, regarding pigeon and plant breeding. You'd be better off criticising the concepts rather than the word choice, especially if you are not going to read the context.

OK, what was your second best contradiction in the theory of evolution?

 

[Jose Fly]

Natural Selection is an absolutely irrational, contradictory and utterly ridiculous concept.

Well that's weird, since it's also something we see happen right before our eyes, all the time. It's also something that's so trivially easy to demonstrate, we manipulate the process to suit our own needs.

Oh, and it's also something that 6days insists is real and is part of the "Biblical model of creation", so perhaps the two of you can get together and resolve your disagreement and then get back to us.

 

[6days]

Mindless nature cannot select anything, by definition a selection requires mind.

But.... surely you agree that sometimes the weak and sick die off? Are you being a bit pedantic, and only disagreeing on terminology?


If your point is that many evolutionists seem to bestow creative god-like power on an impotent process...I agree.*

 

[DFT_Dave]

That's it? Your best contradiction?

Of you'd actually read Darwin's book, you'd realise that the term 'natural selection' was chosen specifically to contrast with the 'artificial selection' that was discussed at length at the start, regarding pigeon and plant breeding. You'd be better off criticising the concepts rather than the word choice, especially of you are not going to read the context.

OK, what was your second best contradiction in the theory of evolution?

Mindless natural selection is the antithesis of artificial selection done with the mind.

"Natural selection" is an irrational oxymoron, there is no such thing as a "mindless selection".

--Dave

 

[gcthomas]

Mindless natural selection is the antithesis of artificial selection done with the mind.

"Natural selection" is an irrational oxymoron, there is no such thing as a "mindless selection".

--Dave

Please, find out about and criticise the concepts. Picking on word choice when you have no knowledge of the context is futile and thoroughly uninteresting.

 

[DFT_Dave]

But.... surely you agree that sometimes the weak and sick die off? Are you being a bit pedantic, and only disagreeing on terminology?


If your point is that many evolutionists seem to bestow creative god-like power on an impotent process...I agree.*

Yes, creative power requires an intelligence that nature alone does not posses.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

Please, find out about and criticise the concepts. Picking on word choice when you have no knowledge of the context is futile and thoroughly uninteresting.

How do you define nature?

Stephen Jay Gould, "Natural selection...could scarcely be less available for any hope that evolution might be cosmically rational."

--Dave

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Please, find out about and criticise the concepts. Picking on word choice when you have no knowledge of the context is futile and thoroughly uninteresting.

Maybe you should read a book on how to properly select terminology.

 

[Jose Fly]

It's always funny when fundamentalist Christians come around and try and tell everyone that black is white, up is down, and things we can see with our own eyes aren't real.

Sad what religion can do to people.

 

[DFT_Dave]

A strange mystery it is that Nature, omnipotent but blind..has brought forth at last a child...with the capacity of judging all the works of his "unthinking Mother". --Bertrand Russell

This is not a mystery, it's an absolute contradictory impossibility.

--Dave

 

[DFT_Dave]

It's always funny when fundamentalist Christians come around and try and tell everyone that black is white, up is down, and things we can see with our own eyes aren't real.

Sad what religion can do to people.

Sad how atheism produces an irrational thought.

--Dave

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

It's always funny when fundamentalist Christians come around and try and tell everyone that black is white, up is down, and things we can see with our own eyes aren't real.

Sounds like heliocentrism.

Sad what religion can do to people.

Yup.

 

[redfern]

Yes, creative power requires an intelligence that nature alone does not posses.

--Dave

“creative power”? I thought you were harping about natural selection. 6days has repeatedly made the point that natural selection is not creative, it only selects. You two are not on the same page at all.

 

[gcthomas]

How do you define nature?

Stephen Jay Gould, "Natural selection...could scarcely be less available for any hope that evolution might be cosmically rational."

--Dave

What do you intend to be taken from that partial quote? He was talking about the idea that evolution does not have humanity as a purpose.

If you are going to quote from material on your own website, at least quote the whole passage:

"Natural selection...could scarcely be less available for any hope that evolution might be either cosmically rational or just parochially directed toward the appearance of Homo sapiens. Natural selection is a theory about adaptation to changing local environments, not a statement about "improvement" or "progress" in any global sense. Natural selection...is a remarkably inefficient, even cruel process".

 

[6days]

“creative power”? I thought you were harping about natural selection. 6days has repeatedly made the point that natural selection is not creative, it only selects. You two are not on the same page at all.

I think Dave is saying that evolutionists believe 'selection' is creative....not that he believes it.

 

[Jose Fly]

If you are going to quote from material on your own website, at least quote the whole passage

He's a creationist, and as we know it is impossible to advocate creationism honestly, so his dishonest quote mining is more expected than anything else.

 

[redfern]

I think Dave is saying that evolutionists believe 'selection' is creative....not that he believes it.

There certainly are novices in the evolutionary camp that have never had to clearly understand the distinction between the mechanisms involved in evolution. Verbally spank them and send them on their way, with a recommendation that they learn before they expound.

But I think few evolutionists that take more than a passing interest in how evolution works would make that mistake. And Dave’s wording sure sounds like he is one of those who does not understand the distinction between the facets of evolution.

 

[gcthomas]

I think Dave is saying that evolutionists believe 'selection' is creative....not that he believes it.

Do you know any that actually say that? Really? A quote would be nice.

 

[6days]

*Natural selection...could scarcely be less available for any hope that evolution might be either cosmically rational or just parochially directed toward the appearance of Homo sapiens. Natural selection is a theory about adaptation to changing local environments, not a statement about "improvement" or "progress" in any global sense. Natural selection...is a remarkably inefficient, even cruel process"

It seems evolutionists don't know what quote mining is. By including more of the statement, it only helps confirm the statement and the quote that Dave used. Selection can cause organisms to adapt. Natural selection by isteself is not creative...it can't change a trilobote into a triceratops... nor the reverse.*

 

[6days]

Do you know any that actually say that? Really? A quote would be nice.

Start here in TOL. Greg Jennings was the most recent.