glassjester
Well-known member
Anna, do you know that if a person is unable to attend mass, the act is not even considered sinful?
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annabenedetti
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I'm probably more well-informed than most Catholics. I've read the CCC from cover to cover (along with the Bible from cover to cover), and studied many encyclicals and other Church documents as well as the writings of the saints.
I'm always open to learning more, since even with what I know there's incredibly more to learn.
Having said that - I understand how mortal sin works already. Grave matter, knowledge, consent. I understand the loopholes.
That doesn't change Church teaching, or the teaching that still remains on the books that those outside the Catholic Church will not find salvation except by certain additional loopholes.
annabenedetti
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Of course I do.
annabenedetti
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Because it wasn't a complaint. So I'm not going to admit to it.
And if you're going to characterize a challenge to Church teaching as a complaint, I'll talk to someone else or drop this conversation entirely.
glassjester
Well-known member
Right, so should Catholics attend mass at all?
glassjester
Well-known member
Alright, I'll cut it out.
jsanford108
New member
annabenedetti
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Thank you. I appreciate that.
Of course. But it shouldn't be a mortal sin to intentionally miss it. Why would Christ want someone to have eternal death because they didn't come to His table on a Sunday?
I have to say I'm in a no man's land between a muscle-memory kind of faith that comes with being a cradle Catholic - and no faith. I've lost certainty altogether.
annabenedetti
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But who determined that making the Sabbath holy must include Mass and that an intentional and unreported missing of it meant hell? Men, not God. Magisterial teaching, I know. But that's another path to follow, isn't it?
glassjester
Well-known member
Yeah - it was priggish of me.
Why would a Catholic, with full understanding and belief of what mass is, intentionally avoid going to mass? I think an answer to that question could shed light on the seriousness of the act.
Come on, I think we'd agree that Christ doesn't want anyone to be lost.
I think very few people can honestly claim to have certainty. You're not alone on that.
jsanford108
New member
False. God established the necessity of keeping the Sabbath holy. And how much holier is a Sabbath when Christ is truly present?
So to intentionally deny Christ's offering, it makes sense for it to be of moral gravity. This is akin to forsaking Christ. Intentionally skipping Mass is intentionally turning to something else in preference to receiving Christ (communion).
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glassjester
Well-known member
That's the meat of it, right there. It's what it says about our priorities that really makes avoiding mass a sin. With full knowledge of what mass is, why on Earth would any Catholic want to intentionally avoid it?
And that, specifically, is what it would take for any sin to be mortal - full knowledge of exactly what you're doing, and understanding why it's wrong, and just going on with it anyway.
I wonder how many (or how few) people actually meet that criteria, when it comes to missing mass.
Anna calls that a loophole. I think it just makes sense.
jsanford108
New member
Hello friend,
I am a biologist, and a Catholic. I usually end up in discussions with atheists every day, and debates with Protestants on here.
If I may, I would like to enter into a private discussion of faith with you, after your comment about losing faith altogether. Due to my background, I have extensive knowledge of Protestant doctrine, as well as biology, chemistry, physics, nature, etc. So, I would really like to hear your reasons and rationale, and if I may, offer mitigating evidence.
Best of wishes.
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Obviously not, but the issue is not whether or not he should prevent it, but rather why he does not. Or, if as some here seem to claim, his interest in the universe keeps it going (if he stopped thinking about it, it would stop/disappear?) then he keeps other diseases and natural disasters going.
glassjester
Well-known member
Yes, and it's a valid issue to bring up, I think.
For the sake of argument, let's say God prevented all cancers. What else should He then prevent?
"If God the Father almighty, the Creator of the ordered and good world, cares for all his creatures, why does evil exist? To this question, as pressing as it is unavoidable and as painful as it is mysterious, no quick answer will suffice. Only Christian faith as a whole constitutes the answer to this question . . . ."
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm#309
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm#309
"There is not a single aspect of the Christian message that is not in part an answer to the question of evil."
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm#309
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm#309
The Church teaches that mortal sin is where grave matter is committed. If it is not grave matter, then it cannot be mortal sin.
The Church teaches what is grave matter, and what is not grave matter by omission.
The reason you're committing so much grave matter is because you're either not fully aware how serious it is, or because of a list of situations that attenuate, diminish, or nullify the nature of our consent, such that the following quote from Text 1859 can not be said of our consent, "sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice."
Text 1735 says that our consent is attenuated, diminished, or nullified, "by... inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors."
annabenedetti
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That's very kind of you. I've been thinking about your offer, and to be honest, my heart isn't open enough right now. For anything. I know it. It wouldn't be right not to be upfront about that so you don't waste your time. But I thank you for your thoughtfulness.
The Apostle Paul wrote the seventh chapter of his epistle to the Church in Rome.
Text 307 says, "God ...enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God's will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings."
There are only two mutually exclusive categories of people in Text 307; unconscious collaborators with God's will, and their opposite; conscious, or "deliberate" collaborators. Unconscious, and deliberate. Those are the only two options.
Text 307 says, "God ...enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God's will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings."
There are only two mutually exclusive categories of people in Text 307; unconscious collaborators with God's will, and their opposite; conscious, or "deliberate" collaborators. Unconscious, and deliberate. Those are the only two options.
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