Cradlers

[annabenedetti]

I do not know what the specific events of The Fall were. But I know that it means the first human being with a conscience (and every one since) acted unconscionably. The first being on Earth with the ability to think, "It would be wrong for me to do this," went and did it anyway (whatever this might have been).

Because of this, we are subject to natural evils, evil actions, and to physical death.

I'm a cradle Catholic. I've been pretty much non-practicing for the past several years, although I still go to Mass from time to time but it's not the same as it was.

And I question the idea of The Fall, both literally and metaphorically. Why should multitudes of people suffer because of the (literal or metaphorical) disobedience of two (literal or metaphorical) people?

In a related but individual act of disobedience: In the Church, without having gone to confession, someone who intentionally misses Sunday Mass has committed a mortal sin and will go to Hell if they don't repent.

That makes less and less sense the more I think about it.

 

[glassjester]

I'm a cradle Catholic. I've been pretty much non-practicing for the past several years, although I still go to Mass from time to time but it's not the same as it was.

And I question the idea of The Fall, both literally and metaphorically. Why should multitudes of people suffer because of the (literal or metaphorical) disobedience of two (literal or metaphorical) people?

Because we, too, are fallen (sinful).

In a related but individual act of disobedience: In the Church, without having gone to confession, someone who intentionally misses Sunday Mass has committed a mortal sin and will go to Hell if they don't repent.

That makes less and less sense the more I think about it.

Ok. You'd need to first establish this - why do we go to mass?

And as an aside, an action may be objectively sinful without denoting complete culpability on the part of the sinner. We cannot know the state of another's soul.

 

[Nihilo]

And as an aside, an action may be objectively sinful without denoting complete culpability on the part of the sinner. We cannot know the state of another's soul.

I don't think that's an aside; I think that's the heart of the matter. If one were to catalog each and every objectively immoral thing as taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, separate out those that are grave matter, then you'd be hard pressed to find a single person who ever lived, who never committed grave matter. But as the Church teaches and as you allude to, we cannot know the state of another person's heart, and, that there are a number of conditions that, when present, "attenuate," "diminish," and even "nullify" all together, the guilt that is actually imputed to a grave moral offender.

"Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

 

[glassjester]

But as the Church teaches and as you allude to, we cannot know the state of another person's heart, and, that there are a number of conditions that, when present, "attenuate," "diminish," and even "nullify" all together, the guilt that is actually imputed to a grave moral offender.

But it's easier just to ignore all that and complain that the Church is too strict.

 

[annabenedetti]

I don't think that's an aside; I think that's the heart of the matter. If one were to catalog each and every objectively immoral thing as taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, separate out those that are grave matter, then you'd be hard pressed to find a single person who ever lived, who never committed grave matter. But as the Church teaches and as you allude to, we cannot know the state of another person's heart, and, that there are a number of conditions that, when present, "attenuate," "diminish," and even "nullify" all together, the guilt that is actually imputed to a grave moral offender.

"Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."

The Church can't even say innocent babies will go to Heaven, only that we can "hope" they do.

 

[annabenedetti]

Because we, too, are fallen (sinful).

According to Church teaching, we're born that way, through no fault of our own.

Ok. You'd need to first establish this - why do we go to mass?

I don't need to establish this. I'm talking about the penalty for not going to Mass. It's Church teaching. Who established this teaching? I don't even know.

 

[patrick jane]

The Church can't even say innocent babies will go to Heaven, only that we can "hope" they do.

I say they go to heaven, no need for the church to tell me that.

 

[annabenedetti]

But it's easier just to ignore all that and complain that the Church is too strict.

It's also easy to self-righteously dismiss questions by calling it complaining. Good luck with that.

 

[patrick jane]

Correct, there is no god of any kind. I did not mean to focus on suffering. But the issue of suffering is one that can be used to deny the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing god. Christians then fall back on The Fall. Which you can only accept if you buy the basic story. I was only trying to make a point. It is not worth discussing.

Nothing you say is worth discussing

 

[glassjester]

According to Church teaching, we're born that way, through no fault of our own.

Yep. We are all born, inclined to sin. Do you disagree?

I don't need to establish this. I'm talking about the penalty for not going to Mass. It's Church teaching. Who established this teaching? I don't even know.

I didn't mean you, personally. I meant we should first discuss what mass is, and why we go to it at all, for the so-called "penalty" to make any sense.

 

[glassjester]

It's also easy to self-righteously dismiss questions by calling it complaining. Good luck with that.

I didn't dismiss your question.

 

[annabenedetti]

I didn't dismiss your question.

You may have answered the question, but you dismissed it as complaining. Sideways, as you frequently do.

Yep. We are all born, inclined to sin. Do you disagree?

Inclination isn't the same as the "stain of original sin." It's a part of it (inclination as sin nature), but it's the stain that's washed away in baptism.

I didn't mean you, personally. I meant we should first discuss what mass is, and why we go to it at all, for the so-called "penalty" to make any sense.

I know what it is. I'd like to know why missing it on Sunday is a mortal sin, and who said so. I should research that.

 

[jsanford108]

I know what it is. I'd like to know why missing it on Sunday is a mortal sin, and who said so. I should research that.

Catechism, paragraph 2174, is a good place to start. Paragraph 2176 gives the basic reason why intentionally missing Mass is a mortal sin.

 

[Nihilo]

But it's easier just to ignore all that and complain that the Church is too strict.

She teaches us authoritatively the right way to go, and the wrong way to go. Catholic pastors could do more to teach about "full knowledge and deliberate/complete consent" IMHO, and I emphasize the H, because I don't know that there isn't some secret (not in a bad way) gameplan governing the choices the bishops are making right now, but all this stuff is all right there in the Catechism. Just one excerpt on the matter, Text 1735, says this:

Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.

As we can see, there are already just in this one text multiple factors that I would guess has afflicted most if not all of us, and not just once or twice, but for some of us, they are just a regular part of our lives.

 

[glassjester]

You may have answered the question, but you dismissed it as complaining. Sideways, as you frequently do.

It was a complaint, was it not?

Inclination isn't the same as the "stain of original sin." It's a part of it (inclination as sin nature), but it's the stain that's washed away in baptism.

It sounds like our loving God has offered us a very easy remedy for removing the stain of original sin.

I know what it is. I'd like to know why missing it on Sunday is a mortal sin, and who said so. I should research that.

Ok, then informed with the knowledge of what mass is, do you think Catholics should go to mass at all? If so, how often?

 

[glassjester]

She teaches us authoritatively the right way to go, and the wrong way to go. Catholic pastors could do more to teach about "full knowledge and deliberate/complete consent" IMHO, and I emphasize the H, because I don't know that there isn't some secret (not in a bad way) gameplan governing the choices the bishops are making right now, but all this stuff is all right there in the Catechism. Just one excerpt on the matter, Text 1735, says this:
As we can see, there are already just in this one text multiple factors that I would guess has afflicted most if not all of us, and not just once or twice, but for some of us, they are just a regular part of our lives.

Yes, it is an incredibly merciful teaching, and addresses our "fallen-ness" very well.

 

[annabenedetti]

It was a complaint, was it not?

Ah. So you did dismiss it as complaining.

In a sideways kind of way, of course. Plausible deniability.



Nevermind. Forget I said anything.

 

[annabenedetti]

Catechism, paragraph 2174, is a good place to start. Paragraph 2176 gives the basic reason why intentionally missing Mass is a mortal sin.

Looking at the footnotes of the CCC looks like they direct to the Code of Canon Law.

So this was promulgated anywhere from the Early Church on through the Middle Ages or so. I'll keep looking to see what council of bishops determined that parishioners who weren't at Mass on Sunday (and therefore not tithing) were committing a mortal sin that would send them hurtling to hell.

 

[glassjester]

Ah. So you did dismiss it as complaining.

In a sideways kind of way, of course. Plausible deniability.

I identified your comment as a complaint, and addressed it. I did not dismiss it.

Really, was it not a complaint about the Church?
Why is that so hard to admit? It's not that big of a deal.


And, by the way, I've continued to try to address it. Do you think Catholics should attend mass at all, and if so, how often?

 

[glassjester]

I'll keep looking to see what council of bishops determined that parishioners who weren't at Mass on Sunday (and therefore not tithing) were committing a mortal sin that would send them hurtling to hell.

Did you not read what Nihilo wrote about mortal sin?