Could God destroy a human being?

[Derf]

That Tree was the first manifestation of the law and, indeed, the law came that the offense (i.e. the eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil) would abound. Also, that Tree and the Law are the only two things in scripture that had/have a ministry of death.

I don't think that's quite accurate.
Here's one other option. I think there are others:
Numbers 21:6 KJV — And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

 

[Derf]

I watched that show every single night it was on. For some time it came on during my shift at a call center I worked at which was in the satellite television industry and so we had TVs all over the call center and I always put the TV nearest me on Bob Enyart live. It was well tolerated by everyone whether they were Christians or not. It was a very entertaining show!

Are the episides available to watch somewhere today?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Are the episodes available to watch somewhere today?

Some of the classics are available on the Bob Enyart YT channel.

 

[Derf]

Some of the classics are available on the Bob Enyart YT channel.

I never have seen any of them, but have heard some audio on the Bob Enyart Live broadcasts.

 

[JudgeRightly]

This must be true for eternal hell to have any meaning...

IF we were created as eternal beings,

That's what this thread is about.

eternally self and other aware spirits and

Wut?

IF we were all created with a free will and

We were.

IF there is an unforgivable sin, a sin that puts the person outside of all grace and

It's called rejection of God.

IF some of HIS creation chose by their free will to sin the unforgivable sin and

They do.

IF it is true that a little leaven / sin leavens / corrupts the whole lump / person / community, then

It is.

IF the only way to protect HIS Church and heavenly Family from these eternally evil people was to banish them from HIS heavenly reality,

It is more loving to do so.

THEN an eternal hell is an absolute necessity to keep the eternally evil ones from corrupting HIS heaven.

Correct.

 

[Clete]

I don't think that's quite accurate.
Here's one other option. I think there are others:
Numbers 21:6 KJV — And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

I didn't say that they were the only things that ever killed anyone and besides, the Bronze Surpent story is a picture of Christ where disobedience toward Moses (i.e. the law) results in death but looking upon the fiery serpent that God had Moses set on a pole, defeated that death. It's totally a picture of Christ being crucified as a sacrifice for sin, a process clearly laid out - guess where - in the law.

Numbers 21: 4 Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. 5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” 6 So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.​

7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.​

8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.​

Partaking of the Tree lead to death...

Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”​

The law came because of the offense at the Tree....

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded,...​

Partaking of the law kills...

Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.​

and as such has a ministry of death...

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.​

II Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?​

​

Because of Christ the curse of the Tree is undone....

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.​

Under Grace the Law is likewise undone...

Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.​

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:​

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,​

And whose sins are covered;​

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”​

Galatians 5:2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised^*, Christ will profit you nothing.​

* Circumcision, being a cutting off of the physical flesh is a symbol of the law which is a cutting off of "the flesh" (see Romans 7).

 

[Clete]

Are the episides available to watch somewhere today?

I think you can order them directly from Bob Enyary Live @ 1-800-8Enyart (800-836-9278)

Hey! Didn't that used to be 1-888-8Enyart? When did that change?

 

[Derf]

I didn't say that they were the only things that ever killed anyone and besides, the Bronze Surpent story is a picture of Christ where disobedience toward Moses (i.e. the law) results in death but looking upon the fiery serpent that God had Moses set on a pole, defeated that death. It's totally a picture of Christ being crucified as a sacrifice for sin, a process clearly laid out - guess where - in the law.

Numbers 21: 4 Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. 5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses: “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.” 6 So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people,​

The Lord sent the serpents...

and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.​

To kill. That makes them ministers of death.

8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.​

And just like we need christ to save us from the effects of Adam's sin at the tree, they needed the serpent on the pole.

Partaking of the Tree lead to death...

Genesis 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”​

The law came because of the offense at the Tree....

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded,...​

Partaking of the law kills...

Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.​

and as such has a ministry of death...

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.​

II Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?​

​

Which ministry of the Spirit is as the tree of life...I get that. And thanks for writing it out here.

 

[Clete]

The Lord sent the serpents...

To kill. That makes them ministers of death.


And just like we need christ to save us from the effects of Adam's sin at the tree, they needed the serpent on the pole.

Which ministry of the Spirit is as the tree of life...I get that. And thanks for writing it out here.

I didn't say that the Tree and the Law were the only two things that ever killed anyone. By your reasoning, guns have a ministry of death. Are you denying that the Tree and the Law are connected?

 

[Derf]

I didn't say that the Tree and the Law were the only two things that ever killed anyone. By you reasoning, guns have a ministry of death.

Did God send guns to kill people? God sent Paul to the Gentiles. He had a ministry to them.
Acts 21:19 KJV — And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

According to Webster's 1828 dictionary (the closest to KJV language I can find), ministry is "The office, duties or functions of a subordinate agent of any kind." The serpents were the subordinate agents (responding to God's direction), and their function was to bring death.

I'm not sure why this is controversial to you, as it follows very closely with your description of the tree and the law...both of which require Christ on a cross to remedy, just as the serpent on a pole was needed for remedy, a sure type of Christ, as you pointed out.

Are you denying that the Tree and the Law are not connected?

Would you like to rephrase that?

 

[Clete]

Did God send guns to kill people? God sent Paul to the Gentiles. He had a ministry to them.
Acts 21:19 KJV — And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

According to Webster's 1828 dictionary (the closest to KJV language I can find), ministry is "The office, duties or functions of a subordinate agent of any kind." The serpents were the subordinate agents (responding to God's direction), and their function was to bring death.

I'm not sure why this is controversial to you, as it follows very closely with your description of the tree and the law...both of which require Christ on a cross to remedy, just as the serpent on a pole was needed for remedy, a sure type of Christ, as you pointed out.

It's only controversial in that it seems to be TRYING to miss the point and ignores this supposed counter example's direct connection to the law of Moses!

Would you like to rephrase that?

Yes, I had an extra "not" in there. Did it cause you to misunderstand the question?

 

[Derf]

It's only controversial in that it seems to be TRYING to miss the point and ignores this supposed counter example's direct connection to the law of Moses!

I just offered it as an addition to the "only two" offered. The serpents were obviously not the tree, nor were they written on tablets of stone. They were sent by God, as agents for His purpose, and their ministry was death. If you think they are "the law" or "the tree", then you may certainly make that assertion. Otherwise, you should admit that there are more than 2 ministers of death.

I dont think that will upset your doctrine, will it? You are saying that the law and the tree are connected, so why can't a third minister of death also be connected?

Yes, I had an extra "not" in there. Did it cause you to misunderstand the question?

Just wanted to make sure I understood your question. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Clete]

I just offered it as an addition to the "only two" offered. The serpents were obviously not the tree, nor were they written on tablets of stone. They were sent by God, as agents for His purpose, and their ministry was death. If you think they are "the law" or "the tree", then you may certainly make that assertion. Otherwise, you should admit that there are more than 2 ministers of death.

No. By your criteria the angel that passed over the Jews in Israel, the frogs, locusts a hail all had ministries of death. The role in killing people does not raise to the level of a ministry of death in any sort of manner that would qualify such things as legitimate counter examples. As I said, it just tries to miss the point, which was to draw a parallel between the purpose of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Law.

I dont think that will upset your doctrine, will it? You are saying that the law and the tree are connected, so why can't a third minister of death also be connected?

Because it isn't connected! Pointing out everything that ever killed anyone in scripture would only serve to obscure the very clear and obvious parallels that exist between the Tree and the Law.

Just wanted to make sure I understood your question. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Derf]

No. By your criteria the angel that passed over the Jews in Israel, the frogs, locusts a hail all had ministries of death.

The angel, sure. But how many died of frogs, locusts, and hail? They were sent to help harden Pharaoh's heart. They had a ministry of hardening.

The role in killing people does not raise to the level of a ministry of death in any sort of manner that would qualify such things as legitimate counter examples.

I'm not offering counter examples. I'm merely offering examples. Why do you think they are "counter"?

As I said, it just tries to miss the point, which was to draw a parallel between the purpose of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Law.

Maybe this answers my question. If offering a scripture-based example counters your parallel, then you should consider whether your doctrine is correct. Don't just complain about scripture.

For the record, I'm not saying the doctrine is incorrect, but only that your statement that those are the only two ministers of death is incorrect.

Because it isn't connected! Pointing out everything that ever killed anyone in scripture would only serve to obscure the very clear and obvious parallels that exist between the Tree and the Law.

Then let them be obscured. Don't hold onto some doctrine supposedly derived from the Word over the Word itself (something you would be quick to say to a Calvinist, perhaps).

See, we can have cordial aspects of our conversation!

 

[Clete]

The angel, sure. But how many died of frogs, locusts, and hail? They were sent to help harden Pharaoh's heart. They had a ministry of hardening.


I'm not offering counter examples. I'm merely offering examples. Why do you think they are "counter"?


Maybe this answers my question. If offering a scripture-based example counters your parallel, then you should consider whether your doctrine is correct. Don't just complain about scripture.

For the record, I'm not saying the doctrine is incorrect, but only that your statement that those are the only two ministers of death is incorrect.

Then let them be obscured. Don't hold onto some doctrine supposedly derived from the Word over the Word itself (something you would be quick to say to a Calvinist, perhaps).

I stand by my statement and do so firmly. Bit players that had something to do with killing people not withstanding.

See, we can have cordial aspects of our conversation!

I'm not aware of anything that either of us have said that hasn't been cordial. Disagreement should not be interpreted has hostility - especially on a text based web forum where one's tone of voice and body language are removed from the equation.