ECT Classical Vs. Biblical Original Sin - Order of Judgment and Consequences (Part 2)

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Recap... from previous OP Series Pieces...

Spoiler

The first OP in this series is Linked HERE.

Connecting the DOTS. It serves two main purposes...​

1} Original Sin was committed by Satan
2) It is Pride
Noted OP affirmation) The most on target follow through on this matter was contributed by [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] HERE.

Moving forward to the next DOT in this connect the DOTS discussion...​

[MENTION=16688]Danoh[/MENTION] , [MENTION=6141]Nick M[/MENTION] , and [MENTION=8957]dodge[/MENTION] brought some excellent discussion to the OVER ARCHING matter of this multi OP series.

[MENTION=16688]Danoh[/MENTION] continually pointed out that Jesus' temptations in the wilderness were a key to this matter and further iterated James 1:13f, 15f to drive home that there are strong biblical keys to this matter.

[MENTION=8957]dodge[/MENTION] had a cross dialogue with Nick M and Danoh that centered around the OP and Danoh's points.

[MENTION=6141]Nick M[/MENTION] stole some of my thunder and accentuated some of the need for further information to support the full OP point in the first of the Series and in-fact, in doing so, is the inception of this next OP.

There seems to be a missing understanding in the minds of people who grasp the concept of "Classical Original Sin". It is specifically noted in the lack of application of the following 2 passages in scripture that must... I Repeat... MUST... be taken into account when evaluating Original Sin, from a biblical perspective.

I'm expressing the verses to prepare you, the reader, for the coming exposition in this OP dialogue. (1 Cor. 15:55f) and (Heb. 2:14)

Now... How do these verses come in handy? They come in handy for the following answer to a valid point that Nick M made.

I had said...

What is the Strongest proof text for classical Original Sin? (Romans 5:18)

Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.​

In close evaluation it seems cut and dry... but note... judgment enters through one man's offense. This verse does not say that Adams sin was imputed to all men... it says judgment entered through one man.

To which Nick M. responded...

That isn't very close evaluation, because you left off the main point, through one man's offense judgment came to all men. This is why Paul then also says through one man's righteous act, the free gift comes. Adam was to subdue the world. Instead, he listened to his wife.

In specific notation of my verbiage that "JUDGMENT" entered through one man, vs. "Classical Original Sin" doctrine with states that "Sin" was "Imputed" to all men via Adam.

The fear of many people is observed... "as they say" that the "Gospel" is being undercut by suggesting that Adam's sin wasn't imputed through one man. The logic here is that Sin entered through one man and thus Jesus, as ONE "Man", removed "All Sin".

This is totally understandable... but...

Read my Lips...

It is biblicaly inaccurate to say that "Sin" was IMPUTED through Adam, or that Jesus took on "Adam's" "SIN".

To be biblicaly accurate... we must understand an UNHOLY Trinity. Enter Heb. 2:14f, 16 and the first OP of this SERIES...

Heb. 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.​

Heb. 2:14-16 has been dropped and two of my points are already vindicated...

The Devil is the guilty party of original sin and I am now revealing that Christ took the devil on with the cross. This is more than biblical! It is the reoccurring theme in scripture! Note how Hebrews 2 says that The Devil "Had" the power of "Death" and then it goes on to state that God doesn't "Give Aid to Angels". There can be no coincidence here! It is cut and dry. The old Angelic Goat is the "Originator" of "Sin".

Now... lets "flesh" this matter out with 1 Corinthians.​

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.​

Enter the "Unholy Trinity"...

Law, Sin and Death... The Law is Good! Sin is any action that deviates from God's perfection and Death isn't a thing... it's a NAME in this particular passage. If a guy puts mail in my mail box for a living, I can call him the "Post Man". If an Angel has the "Power of Death" then I can call him "DEATH".

What does this mean? It means that 1 Corinthians 15:54-56 is saying that The "DEVIL" used "SIN" to impute "LAW" upon mankind. What is Sin? (John 16:9) Unbelief in God. Specifically... Unbelief in God's utter Provisional Perfection and Love.

But... How can the "DEVIL's" power be the "LAW"? Easy as pie r squared! Example... The bible is Good... but Satan uses the bible to corrupt man's understanding of God by "Lying" about what it is actually saying, in a way that makes God look like a HATEFUL agent of OPPRESSION. (John 8:44; Matthew 23:33; 12:34) The perfection of God is our ROCK FOUNDATION! But if we are tricked into believing that we have to "BE LIKE THE ROCK", we are no longer "BUILT ON THAT ROCK FOUNDATION", but attempting to "BUILD OURSELVES INTO A FOUNDATION". Let us be realistic here... there is only ONE Foundation of ALL CREATION, and it isn't us.

Adam didn't "sin" in a way that imputed his Sin, or Propensity to "sin" onto all humanity. If a "Spiritually Alive" being is Perfect LIKE GOD, than Adam and Satan, could not have fallen, or been subject to "TEMPTATION". Adam didn't even "sin" in a way that was steeped with "unbelief". Eve, on the other hand... did "sin" in a way that was steeped with "unbelief". (1 Tim. 2:14) Eve was "Deceived". The Devil was the "Deceiver", and ADAM, clearly didn't want to "Live Without His Wife". This is why Adam is likened unto Christ... not because he is the failure and Jesus is the Righteous ONE, but because Adam couldn't "Save Eve", by taking on "Death". Only God could and DID do that!

Is there a verse that "Brings this Home"?

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

Thank you Nick! So see... Adam is the "Christ typification figure" and Eve is the "Bride of Christ figure". This is why "Judgment entered through ADAM" and was "PROPITIATED" through Jesus.

It's a LOVE STORY!!!

The Law was brought on upon man by Eve and Adam's response to the DEVIL. The Devil is the TEMPTER, ACCUSER, OPPRESSOR, LIAR, SELF APPOINTED JUDGE and seeker of the THRONE OF GOD.

Do you now understand why it is so vile to reduce "Original Sin" down to Adam's "GUILT" being imputed upon all mankind? It takes the 1 John 4:8 and 1 Cor. 13 out of the matter!

A JUST GOD DOES NOT IMPUTE SIN TO BABIES! A JUST God DOES provide consequence for ALL SIN! (2 Cor. 5:21; Luke 22:42 and 1 John 2:2)

[MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ... I'm sorry friend... but "classical original sin" and the idea that Adam's sin was imputed to all mankind is what actually hurts the CROSS and HE who brought it POWER. God didn't take ADAM's Sin on, on the Cross. God took the "IMPUTATION" of the LAW on, on the cross.

Otherwise... these verses would be rendered worthless...

Romans 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.​

"Drink this Cup"... of what? Wrath! Wrath brought on by initial IMPUTATION of and THEN the transgression of THE LAW. Eve acted out of ignorance and Adam acted out of Love. It isn't until Cain that we see the ACTUAL TRANSGRESSION of the LAW. And this adds up, because God warns Cain... "Gen. 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.​

Here... we see that "Sin" predates Law... Yet Paul says this... "Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died."

So, how could Sin predate the Law and yet Paul suggests that he was ALIVE without the Law? Romans clearly states that where there is NO LAW, there is NO SIN.

The following is a major counter thesis to Classical Original Sin Doctrine.​

Sin has a NAME...
"DEATH/GOAT/DEVIL/ACCUSER/FALSE or DARK MORNING STAR/LIAR/DRAGON/ADVERSARY/SATAN" and he was alive before Adam and Eve were alive, and all humanity for that matter. Thus, debating Imputation of Sin upon mankind is false.

Law was imputed and because of this... Sin (Satan) was afforded the opportunity to IMPUTE SIN (himself) upon mankind... which results in ETERNAL DEATH! (Rm. 6:23)

Who fixed all of this for us? (Romans 5:18)

This was complex... but I wanted to be thorough... The verses that dole out consequence in specifics to Adam and Eve will have to wait for the next OP in this series. There is no doubt that the Tree's, Adam, Eve, God, satan and specific events and response must be discussed next OP. But... I'm trying to let this OP series flow organically... so... WHO KNOWS?

As for the clobbering of original sin to the point that it is dealt with..., I guess that will have to wait a bit, as well. We have to get the Why down, before we get to the "WHY NOT".

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

God never desired DESTRUCTION, ENSLAVEMENT or DEATH within HIS Kingdom

 

[Nick M]

Actually, there is no sin without the law. However, death reigned over from Adam to Moses, even those who did not sin according to Adam. That is paraphrased.

 

[Nick M]

It is biblicaly inaccurate to say that "Sin" was IMPUTED through Adam, or that Jesus took on "Adam's" "SIN".

You seem to reject Romans 5. Funny that Roman Catholics believe it, as do Calvinists. Usually, "Pentecostals" reject it because they want to be judged on their works.

 

[musterion]

Since "all have sinned," what does "those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam's transgression" mean?

That death has passed unto all, even those who did not break a clearly given directive (Law) as Adam did, or as Israel could, yet they still sin?

Only thing I can figure.

 

[Nick M]

Since "all have sinned," what does "those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam's transgression" mean?

I can't say with certainty what it means. But I still believe it. I think Paul is driving home the point of a need for a savior.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Actually, there is no sin without the law. However, death reigned over from Adam to Moses, even those who did not sin according to Adam. That is paraphrased.

Now you're talking! "DEATH" Reigned! ... from Adam to Moses... Now note this verse...

"Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”​

So here it is... DEATH is the Angel of Death in scripture. There is only one ANGEL that we know was given the POWER of DEATH... and in Gen. 3... this Angel is told that he will "eat dust". Think of this... It is clearly a euphemism for the title of Death. How do I get away with making such a strong biblical argument without worrying about getting slammed? Context... Context... Context... Our Lord, God had "formed" Adam from the "Dust of the earth" and right after "Satan" receives "authority" over this curse, by "becoming this curse", Adam is told by God that He will "Return to Dust".

Want another verse that drives this home?

Revelation 20:14 ... Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

Yup... there it is... the Angel that exalted himself on level with God and attempted to Kill God and Judge God under His own Law of perfection, finally gets the very "Gallows" He created. "Think Haman in Esther".

Why did I underline "Body of Moses". Because of this verse... (Daniel 10:13)... Note... "Michael" (One of the supreme Captains or Arc Angels of God's Army) is at war with the Angel of Persia. This is telling to the "dispensationalist", because we know that Satan has attempted to destroy national Israel since it's inception and it is even more clear that Satan is the "Prince" over "Persia", because Persia is currently ruling over Israel as one of the Beast Empires that rose and fell.

My point? That "Body of Moses" reference is tied to Death's reign.

Let's pick this apart... Satan is in authority in Heaven by his own strategic movement against God. We know that He is the Accuser and False judge that Jesus warns Israel about when He speaks of the matter in the gospels. We further know that Satan is acknowledged as the ruler of this "perishing dust" world, by Jesus Christ Himself. This tells us that something major is being revealed that wasn't understood by the Hebrews.

By Paul's own admission... SIN cannot be imputed where there is no LAW. Thus we know that Sin was imputed to men for transgressing the LAW of God before Moses. If this were not so... God would have been slaughtering innocent men by sending the flood and all of the other manners that He slowed the spread of utter wickedness in scripture that preceded Moses. We also know that Satan must have thought that he had a claim on national Israel... as the "Body of Moses".

There it is... The Body of Moses is national Israel and the Bride of Christ. The Body of Christ is an entirely different dispensation, as we well know. Satan thought he had the right to claim the "Body of Moses" as his own. Why? Because they were under the very LAW that he had been using to condemn mankind to death of the physical form and "Spiritual Form" as well. We also see this in Job (arguably, the oldest book in scripture). Satan is attempting to show that Job will reject God if he is brought into the throws of adversity. Satan has no problem facilitating such adversity, as we see his nasty assault on Job and his family over the coarse of time. Job is also a fair typification of someone that we know very dearly, in this light. Can you think of anyone that was attacked by Satan to the point of poverty and nakedness, that "Arose" triumphant over the dragon's wiles? Think MAJOR IMPORTANT. Think... (John 5:39) important.

And so... there it is... DEATH reigned from Adam to Moses and was even part of the imputation of the Physical, Stone Law to Israel, through the human hand that penned the very first 5 books of scripture and served God. How can I back this up? Two verses that are fairly implicit about angels being involved in matters.

Galatians 3:19 - What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.​

editing in... that "Hand of a M(m)ediator" is a duel reference. It refers to Jesus and Moses. But... this would lead away from this discussion.

Still not sure?

Ezek. 28:14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.​

What covenant atoned for sin from the time of Adam to Moses?

Sacrifice! The Fiery Stones. And once Moses came into being... what did "covering cherub" mean? (Think of the COVERING Cherubim over the Atonement Seat, or Mercy Seat... on the Ark of the Covenant)

We see that Satan had his hand of evil over things, up until the point his pride brought about his own fall.

1 Cor. 2:8 - which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

This is where the Dragon got CAST OUT.

Sorry for the length of wording, but I'm struggling to be precise and bring more depth to this matter.

- EE

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

You seem to reject Romans 5. Funny that Roman Catholics believe it, as do Calvinists. Usually, "Pentecostals" reject it because they want to be judged on their works.

Hi Nick,

I see you're choosing "fighting words" for a Free Will, Open, Dispensational Zionist, like myself. But I'll say this.

To say that Adam's SIN was imputed to us is nowhere in scripture, nor did Jesus take on "Adam's Sin". Jesus ensured that the very Law that Imputes sin was removed from the equation. He took our collective human debt that was accrued by the Law, through SINS (Satan's) assault and "Crucified it in His Members".

The Classical Doctrine of Original Sin oversimplifies this matter to the point it makes God unjust and ignores the entire message of Paul, the chosen emissary of the Gospel's dispensation by Jesus, our Lord, God and Savior.

If you ignore the Law information and the requirement of Law to exist before Sin can be imputed, you are removing the core achievement of the Cross. The Law was imputed onto mankind through Satan's deceit of Eve, and then Adam's fear of losing her. Cain is the official Sinner in the tail. Note Cain Murders and that God drove mankind out of the Garden, before Evil could occur in the Garden. This is very symbolic. It's like a Loving Father saying... Get out of my house if your going to "kill" one another and "destroy" yourselves, for my house is a house of peace and though I'll always be here for you, you cannot commit Evil in my presence.

If you jump straight to the Adam sinned and that sin was imputed to all of us point... you are undercutting the fact that we all sin.

Even deeper... Adam and Eve were indisputably perfect in the Free Will, morally neutral fashion that God clearly creates all life. We are born this very same way and what do we see? We all mess up! God is continually merciful. It's written in such big letters of indisputable TRUTH that we are forced to come to this reality.

This is why Jerry is justified to argue that we are all born spiritually alive. This doesn't undercut the cross, it shows that we are ALL in need of a savior. Otherwise, people could read the Adam and Eve account and say; "I wouldn't have listened to the serpent"!

We all Fall short, and that is the very thing that classical original sin doctrine "sweeps under the rug".

We are ALL EQUALLY in need of Jesus! Adam, Eve, the Pope, You, Me, David the Psalmist, Judas, Charles Manson, The most seemingly Holy person, the most obvious sinners that we come across... we are ALL EQUALLY bound by our need for the only (Luke 2:11; Is. 43:11).

 

[Danoh]

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I'm addressing another poster that is awesome... but is communicating to me through other means than I am able to share at this moment.

OTHER POSTER... Your argument is that this underlines what you are calling "Sinless Doctrine" and creates "Unregenerate Christians".

I counter argue that even the Atheist can outshine a Christian in morality. The heart is a secret foundation and only Jesus knows it. If a person "Blames" Adam for their "Sin", then they don't take personal responsibility for Sin occurring in their life.

If a person doesn't acknowledge that they mess up, all on their own, and thus only surrender to Jesus is possible, then they can never truly place their belief in Jesus of their own Free Will. A person must choose to "House the Holy Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9)".

I respect you deeply. I would appreciate it if you would just public-ally bring your disagreement towards me. I have prayed on the very matters you are addressing and I could use your public feedback, also our debate wouldn't hurt a thing.

Oh! forget it! son of Rolling, Quiet Thunder... [MENTION=6696]Lon[/MENTION] ... Come forward!

I welcome your rebuttal and all who will challenge me. I'm not God and I make errors. How can I be sharpened or "humbled", if I am only "privately" addressed?
[MENTION=6141]Nick M[/MENTION] is certainly giving me public hell... and I'm totally appreciative of it! He is stimulating thought, scripture searching and challenge.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

There it Is! BOOM! THE Bronze Serpent that wasn't the Serpent. We were led to the False Morning Star in Genesis 3, by the serpent that lusted to fill the "belly" of his pride with the eyes of God's authority. Venus is the Morning Star by teaching of men. It is a guide to sailors as well. We were being run "Aground", by the deception of the Devil.

Our TRUE NORTH (Venus is known as the NORTH STAR, though the North star is actually Polaris... but... this ties to Greek mythology, and is referenced in scripture) is Jesus and HE sacrificed EVERYTHING that we could see it!

This is also why this verse exists... Galatians 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us - for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”

Not thee curse... God is never a "Curse", but he "Became a curse"... I.E. Death... for us... Heb. 2:14

This further ties into this... (John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,)

The Serpent doesn't' guide us home... The Law doesn't guide us home... ONLY God guides us HOME.

 

[Danoh]

Faith is a very simple concept rendered some theological construct by some.

It is this simple - you walk over to your Mac having decided to believe your legs will take you there and believing your Mac will be there.

You sit at your chair having decided to believe it will hold you.

You log on having decided to believe that your....ad infinitum.

God having given our template: Adam, the ability to decide to believe in one thing or another, that he exercise that ability and decide to believe on Him...

Fact is, were human beings unable to form beliefs; human beings would be unable to function...

Beliefs...

Genesis 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Faith is a very simple concept rendered some theological construct by some.

It is this simple - you walk over to your Mac having decided to believe your legs will take you there and believing your Mac will be there.

You sit at your chair having decided to believe it will hold you.

You log on having decided to believe that your....ad infinitum.

God having given our template: Adam, the ability to decide to believe in one thing or another, that he exercise that ability and decide to believe on Him...

Fact is, were human beings unable to form beliefs; human beings would be unable to function...

Beliefs...

Genesis 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

I couldn't agree more! The heart of the Gospel is exactly Who we "listen to" and Who "We Believe". It all comes full circle from the garden account warning, to our own personal "choice".

If we were incapable of forming ideas and beliefs of our own, we would be Divinely rendered empty shells of utter false will. This is clearly not the case, as even Adam and Eve were given choice.

:thumb: (Heb. 11:1)

Are we on the same page on this matter as I am reading and currently "believing"?

 

[Nick M]

,

I see you're choosing "fighting words" for a Free Will, Open, Dispensational Zionist, like myself. But I'll say this.

To say that Adam's SIN was imputed to us is nowhere in scripture, nor did Jesus take on "Adam's Sin".

So you do reject Romans 5. Nevertheless, death reigned.

He took our collective human debt that was accrued by the Law, through SINS (Satan's) assault and "Crucified it in His Members".

He died for sin, the state of being. Yes, that is the whole world, all sin for all time.

The Classical Doctrine

Like other "MADists", I'm not concerned with classical doctrine, just with what the Bible says. And it says this.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Since "all have sinned," what does "those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam's transgression" mean?

That death has passed unto all, even those who did not break a clearly given directive (Law) as Adam did, or as Israel could, yet they still sin?

Only thing I can figure.

This is a fantastic discussion point and I hope it will be addressed by more than Nick M, who vindicated my heart on this matter and affirmed your step forward in discussion.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

So you do reject Romans 5. Nevertheless, death reigned.




He died for sin, the state of being. Yes, that is the whole world, all sin for all time.



Like other "MADists", I'm not concerned with classical doctrine, just with what the Bible says. And it says this.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

I keep saying it over and over, but I will directly state it...

Paul states that he was once alive... "without the Law". He further states that "Where there is no Kaw there is no Sin".

This makes the idea that it is "Adam's Sin" that is imputed to us impossible to support. Further more... the Law is what is the very "Power of Sin". This means that "Judgment" can only come where there is "Law". God didn't place the tree of the "knowledge of Good and Evil" in the Garden of Eden as a Law. He placed it in the garden by architectural design to allow all possible choice. He "Warned" us like a Good Father would... to not eat of it or "we will surely die". This is not a "Command", but a "Warning".

If it was not a "Warning", and it was a command... we would have been under Law upon creation, and thus... we would have already had the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

It was Satan who already had the (knowledge of Good and Evil or Law) and used his "Corrupted Wisdom" to initiate the "Deception of Mankind". I'm saying that the "True Believer" isn't under the Law by being "Dead to the Law". The True believer is "Dead to Sin", because they are "Dead to the Law". The Law remains in a fashion to convict of our NEED for God, but in Eden... mankind knew that God was our Need, as He was simultaneously the Father (Teacher) of mankind and the Mother (Creator) of mankind. He was our Parents and we had a Loving and direct relationship with Him. It was a "Face to Face" relationship.

We know this by the verbiage that Genesis uses.

It wasn't the "Sin" of Adam that was entered upon all mankind, but the very "Law" that "Sin" is empowered by that was entered through Adam.

Before you fire back... consider this... why would God set our human origin up to fail and then punish us for this failure? It is a horrible suggestion and it is completely counter to the GOODNESS of God.

I have a two pronged rebuttal to that assertion and this is one of them, while Open Theism is my second... but this is the "Original Sin Prong", thus it is the focus.

 

[glorydaz]

Since "all have sinned," what does "those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam's transgression" mean?

That death has passed unto all, even those who did not break a clearly given directive (Law) as Adam did, or as Israel could, yet they still sin?

Only thing I can figure.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.​

I don't think it's that they still sin, but that they all die physically.

Death reigned over all of creation because of the curse that Adam's sin incurred. Therefore all men suffer and die, whether they commit any sin of their own. Thus babies can die (physically) before they even know to choose good over evil. It wasn't sin, itself that was passed down, but all the ramifications that come from that sin committed in the garden. To make matters worse, satan now has full rein as god of this world....which he didn't have in the garden.

 

[Nick M]

I keep saying it over and over, but I will directly state it...

Paul states that we are alive... "without the Law". He further states that "Where there is no Sin there is no Law".

He is telling you that the law is a teacher. You keep missing the part about "nevertheless, death reigned". The wages of sin is death.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

He is telling you that the law is a teacher. You keep missing the part about "nevertheless, death reigned". The wages of sin is death.

Absolutely... I don't actually miss this point but have iterated it over and over. If it is not recognized in full exposition, the matter places the wrong Em-pha-sis on the wrong Syl-la-bles. I fully agree that the "Wages of Sin is Death" and I even quoted this verse.

The following is a major counter thesis to Classical Original Sin Doctrine.​

Sin has a NAME...
"DEATH/GOAT/DEVIL/ACCUSER/FALSE or DARK MORNING STAR/LIAR/DRAGON/ADVERSARY/SATAN" and he was alive before Adam and Eve were alive, and all humanity for that matter. Thus, debating Imputation of Sin upon mankind is false.

Law was imputed and because of this... Sin (Satan) was afforded the opportunity to IMPUTE SIN (himself) upon mankind... which results in ETERNAL DEATH! (Rm. 6:23)

We are saved from the consequences of Death, while the one who brought imputation of the Law upon mankind (wrath by transgression of the Law, as I stated in this very thread and OP) is not staved from the imputation of this matter. Adam... would be condemned as the Adversary himself if he was truly the "origin of sin".

If obedience were the burden of the matter, then God would be a flesh based judge. God isn't the "judge of flesh", but clearly the Devil is. The full picture must be taken into account, or the very Character of God is being misrepresented as if He were an UnJust Judge.

[MENTION=6141]Nick M[/MENTION] - I'm editing this in... You still haven't dropped your biggest argument scripture on me yet... I'm still waiting...

17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

You've been emphasizing the wrong syllable... what gives... you've had this here, all this time and even quoted it... but you still haven't pointed it out.

I, indeed, have an answer... but I was hoping you would see this and put the screws to me.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I'm signing off for a bit. Most likely the entire evening. But, keep in mind... "8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." That would be J-E-S-U-S!

1 John 4:8 and 1 Corinthians 13 tell us exactly "WHO" God is, just incase we missed that the Groom died for His wayward wife and ALL Humanity, in the process. Greater Love hath no "God-Man" than He lay down His life for His friends...

In other words... if we don't exemplify the utter perfect Love of Jesus when we seek to create some form of doctrine involving Jesus... (That would be everything we try to understand through 1 John 2:27 and John 5:39)... We've "missed the mark".

That's my opinion on the matter and I would claim humble opinion... but at last you all know by know... "I am Evil.<(I)>".

- EE