Church government is not hierarchical

[iouae]

It is a characteristic of cults, that they usually adopt a hierarchical form of church government.

I believe Christ taught exactly the opposite - that the leader must be the servant. I do not believe any Christian can domineer another's faith walk.

I never see Peter or Paul ever ordering anyone to do anything on the basis of their supposed "authority".

Look at the democratic manner in which the biggest crisis (circumcision) was resolved in Acts 15...

"6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.... ALL TALK

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said...
...INCLUDING PETER...

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul,...
....THEN BARNABUS AND PAUL TALK....

13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:....
...THEN JAMES TALKS (BTW this James being the half-brother of Jesus, son of Mary) AND JAMES SEEMS TO SETTLE THE MATTER...

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas;....
...THEN THE WHOLE CHURCH REACHES A CONSENSUS WHICH PLEASES ALL....

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia....
THEN THEY WRITE LETTERS IN THE NAME OF ALL THE BELIEVERS, NOT A POPE...

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. 32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them....
...JUDAS AND SILAS DON'T ORDER ANYONE TO DO ANYTHING, RATHER THEY CONFIRM THEM, OR ESTABLISH AND STRENGTHEN THEM IN RIGHT DOING.

Even in this earliest crisis in the Christian Church we do not see one Christian ever ordering another Christian around or domineering the other's faith walk.

 

[Truster]

It is characteristic of denominations....

 

[iamaberean]

Too many churches are run like a business. It's all about the money!

 

[Logos1560]

It is a characteristic of cults, that they usually adopt a hierarchical form of church government.

I believe Christ taught exactly the opposite - that the leader must be the servant. I do not believe any Christian can domineer another's faith walk.

The Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England advocate a hierarchical form of church government.

The Church of England makers of the KJV changed some renderings in the pre-1611 English Bibles that were understood to favor congregational church government views or Presbyterian church government views to renderings that were more favorable to a hierarchical episcopal church government view.

 

[iouae]

The Roman Catholic Church and the Church of England advocate a hierarchical form of church government.

The Church of England makers of the KJV changed some renderings in the pre-1611 English Bibles that were understood to favor congregational church government views or Presbyterian church government views to renderings that were more favorable to a hierarchical episcopal church government view.

You are right.

Take the most seemingly hierarchical scripture I could think of.
Heb 13
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

This call to "obedience" is more or less repeated 5 verses later.

22 And I beseech you, brethren, suffer the word of exhortation:

That is what Heb 13:17 is saying.
Paul is bringing the Gospel message to them, and Paul is exhorting them to listen to their teachers. "Listen" in a Biblical sense always means listen to obey.

But the word "obey" is "pitho" (Strongs G3982) which means "to suffer one's self to be persuaded to believe". It is not the "obey" as in the army, but rather "be teachable".

"Rule" is Strongs G2233 and is "hegeomai" meaning "to lead, go before".

Every Christian is a product of listening to some Christian who has "gone before" them in believing, and who now brings them the Gospel message, which they would do well to heed. In turn, they will go before others and lead others who heed, to salvation.

Thus the KJV which was translated for King James, who wanted to use religion to enforce obedience, naturally had translators trying to get the strictest possible obedience out of the Greek which they possibly could. Even in Heb 13:17 there is no domineering of one Christian by another. That idea arose later when the Church became an organ of state in the "Holy" Roman Empire. And we know how badly the church abused power it was never given by scripture alone.

 

[heir]

It is a characteristic of cults, that they usually adopt a hierarchical form of church government.

I believe Christ taught exactly the opposite - that the leader must be the servant. I do not believe any Christian can domineer another's faith walk.

I never see Peter or Paul ever ordering anyone to do anything on the basis of their supposed "authority".

1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

...

2 Timothy 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

 

[Logos1560]

Hebrews 13:17 in the KJV

Hebrews 13:17 in the KJV

You are right.

Take the most seemingly hierarchical scripture I could think of.
Heb 13
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

That is what Heb 13:17 is saying.
Paul is bringing the Gospel message to them, and Paul is exhorting them to listen to their teachers. "Listen" in a Biblical sense always means listen to obey.

But the word "obey" is "pitho" (Strongs G3982) which means "to suffer one's self to be persuaded to believe". It is not the "obey" as in the army, but rather "be teachable".

"Rule" is Strongs G2233 and is "hegeomai" meaning "to lead, go before".

Thus the KJV which was translated for King James, who wanted to use religion to enforce obedience, naturally had translators trying to get the strictest possible obedience out of the Greek which they possibly could. Even in Heb 13:17 there is no domineering of one Christian by another. That idea arose later when the Church became an organ of state in the "Holy" Roman Empire. And we know how badly the church abused power it was never given by scripture alone.

Yes, that would be one example.

Was prelatic or hierarchical rule strengthened any in the KJV at Hebrews 13:17? The pre-1611 English Bibles have this rendering: “have the oversight of you” although the 1538 Coverdale’s English-Latin N. T. has “your overseers.” Thomas Bilson, co-editor of the 1611 KJV, twice quoted from Hebrews 13:17, using the words “Obey your overseers” (Perpetual Government, pp. 178, 280). The KJV revised the rendering “have the oversight of you” to “have the rule over you.”

Is the KJV’s rendering in its text closer in meaning to the 1582 Rheim’s rendering “your prelates”? Thomas Bilson cited Jerome as quoting Hebrews 13:17 as Bilson translated it into English as: “Obey your rulers and be subject to them” (Perpetual Government, p. 269). Bilson’s own translating of Jerome’s Latin could suggest that the KJV’s rendering at Hebrews 13:17 was influenced by the Latin Vulgate. The same difference between the pre-1611 Protestant English Bibles and the KJV is also found in Hebrews 13:7 and 13:24. The 1611 edition of the KJV does have a marginal note at Hebrews 13:17: “or, guide“ and a note at Hebrews 13:7 “Or, are the guides.”

The 1657 English translation of the Dutch Bible translated these same words at verse seventeen as “’to your guides,’ [that is, pastors and teachers]” and at verse seven as “your guides [Or leaders, as ver. 17].” In his epistle to the reader, Bilson had a reference to Hebrews 13:17, and there his quotation of it used “leaders” [“the Holy Ghost requireth the faithful to ‘obey their leaders, and to be subject to them‘”] (Perpetual Government, p. 24). Again Bilson had a reference to Hebrews 13:17 in the margin with the word “leaders” in the text (p. 501). The 1842 revision of the KJV rendered them at all three verses as “your leaders.”

 

[iouae]

Yes, that would be one example.

Was prelatic or hierarchical rule strengthened any in the KJV at Hebrews 13:17? The pre-1611 English Bibles have this rendering: “have the oversight of you” although the 1538 Coverdale’s English-Latin N. T. has “your overseers.” Thomas Bilson, co-editor of the 1611 KJV, twice quoted from Hebrews 13:17, using the words “Obey your overseers” (Perpetual Government, pp. 178, 280). The KJV revised the rendering “have the oversight of you” to “have the rule over you.”

Is the KJV’s rendering in its text closer in meaning to the 1582 Rheim’s rendering “your prelates”? Thomas Bilson cited Jerome as quoting Hebrews 13:17 as Bilson translated it into English as: “Obey your rulers and be subject to them” (Perpetual Government, p. 269). Bilson’s own translating of Jerome’s Latin could suggest that the KJV’s rendering at Hebrews 13:17 was influenced by the Latin Vulgate. The same difference between the pre-1611 Protestant English Bibles and the KJV is also found in Hebrews 13:7 and 13:24. The 1611 edition of the KJV does have a marginal note at Hebrews 13:17: “or, guide“ and a note at Hebrews 13:7 “Or, are the guides.”

The 1657 English translation of the Dutch Bible translated these same words at verse seventeen as “’to your guides,’ [that is, pastors and teachers]” and at verse seven as “your guides [Or leaders, as ver. 17].” In his epistle to the reader, Bilson had a reference to Hebrews 13:17, and there his quotation of it used “leaders” [“the Holy Ghost requireth the faithful to ‘obey their leaders, and to be subject to them‘”] (Perpetual Government, p. 24). Again Bilson had a reference to Hebrews 13:17 in the margin with the word “leaders” in the text (p. 501). The 1842 revision of the KJV rendered them at all three verses as “your leaders.”

Thanks for that in-depth review of what different translators have to say about this verse.

I suppose it must have been the subject of much discussion when Bibles began to be translated and printed in the vernacular.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

It is a characteristic of cults, that they usually adopt a hierarchical form of church government.

What visible vestige of the Lord's Bride do you attend and covenant your membership with to receive instruction, worship God, receive the sacraments, and be subject to discipline?

Odd that our Lord thought it not robbery to become subservient, actively and passively obedient, to the will of the Father. Do you even understand the economy of the Trinity?

Is there no ordering in your own household or does headship mean nothing to you? Or are you just one of the many liberal egalitarians contributing to the dissolution of God's ordering of the family?

Beam. Eye. Remove it. :AMR:

AMR

 

[iouae]

What visible vestige of the Lord's Bride do you attend and covenant your membership with to receive instruction, worship God, receive the sacraments, and be subject to discipline?

AMR

I attend with a cult of super nice, righteousness-seeking Christians, who are otherwise brain-dead. They have no doubt that they have all truth. I would rather not name and shame them. I have no problem with their church services, and sometimes their sermons are spot on. Other times they are way off.

They do communion incorrectly so I make alternate plans.
I am not subject to their discipline since I am not trying to change them. One can learn from others, even from their mistakes.

 

[iouae]

Odd that our Lord thought it not robbery to become subservient, actively and passively obedient, to the will of the Father. Do you even understand the economy of the Trinity?

I understand that all are to pray to the Father and have a direct relationship with him, no man standing between. In this way we follow the pattern which Christ set.

Is there no ordering in your own household or does headship mean nothing to you? Or are you just one of the many liberal egalitarians contributing to the dissolution of God's ordering of the family?

Ouch! Do you tell your wife how to worship?

And yes I did train up my child, because children are not adults.
As an adult Christian I work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. Amazing how many Christians who have been in pews for decades still act like babies needing someone to tell them what to believe and how to behave.

We go to church to learn, and to be encouraged by fellow brethren, our equals, not our parents.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I attend with a cult of super nice, righteousness-seeking Christians, who are otherwise brain-dead. They have no doubt that they have all truth. I would rather not name and shame them. I have no problem with their church services, and sometimes their sermons are spot on. Other times they are way off.

They do communion incorrectly so I make alternate plans.
I am not subject to their discipline since I am not trying to change them. One can learn from others, even from their mistakes.

I see. You are not a formal member, just someone attending, so you do not place yourself under authority. You are also wise and discerning to point out how greatly you learn from their mistakes. Finally, you are casual enough to hold your brothers and sisters up to ridicule and murmuring, declaring you do not want to shame them, as if you think your actions are not seen by He who willingly died for that very church you mock.

You are an odious sort and one who should never speak again about matters of the faith until you fall to your knees and seek forgiveness for your vilification of others and the local church militant.

AMR

 

[iouae]

I see. You are not a formal member, just someone attending, so you do not place yourself under authority. You are also wise and discerning to point out how greatly you learn from their mistakes. Finally, you are casual enough to hold your brothers and sisters up to ridicule and murmuring, declaring you do not want to shame them, as if you think your actions are not seen by He who willingly died for that very church you mock.

You are an odious sort and one who should never speak again about matters of the faith until you fall to your knees and seek forgiveness for your vilification of others and the local church militant.

AMR

I let these words from your own previous post speak to you.

Beam. Eye. Remove it.

The people I attend with have good attitudes, are friendly and show a Christian spirit quite unlike the one displayed in your hate-filled post above.

 

[heir]

What visible vestige of the Lord's Bride do you attend and covenant your membership with to receive instruction, worship God, receive the sacraments, and be subject to discipline?

What are you, Catholic?

 

[Truster]

Well spotted.

 

[chrysostom]

Jesus asked peter to feed His sheep

three times

 

[Truster]

Jesus asked peter to feed His sheep

three times

No He didn't ask Peter anything, Peter was told.

1 Feed my lambs
2 Shepherd my sheep
3 Feed my sheep

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

I'm glad the Government of the Universe ,and then Eternal @nd Infinitely More Both Now,And Forever More, Rest Upon HIS SHOULDERS!-)

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Blessings...
SeraphimsCherub...

 

[PureX]

The temptation of man to presume God's 'authority' unto himself, and then use it to control and manipulate and lord themselves over other men is overwhelming. There is no Christian religious organization that I know of that does not engage in this practice to a significant degree.

And in fact, most human beings like it this way. We are social creatures and we like having social 'pecking orders'. It's what we're used to. It's the way we generally interact with each other.

I do believe that Jesus was trying to call us to transcend all this authoritarianism, but it was simply too much egalitarianism for his followers to grasp. And it appears that it still is.

 

[iamaberean]

The temptation of man to presume God's 'authority' unto himself, and then use it to control and manipulate and lord themselves over other men is overwhelming. There is no Christian religious organization that I know of that does not engage in this practice to a significant degree.

And in fact, most human beings like it this way. We are social creatures and we like having social 'pecking orders'. It's what we're used to. It's the way we generally interact with each other.

I do believe that Jesus was trying to call us to transcend all this authoritarianism, but it was simply too much egalitarianism for his followers to grasp. And it appears that it still is.

You are so right. People like authority, someone they can believe without putting out any effort on their own. That really goes against the bible, for it says:
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

That means, to me, we should study God's word for ourselves.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The key words in the above scripture is: 'rightly dividing the word of truth.' Because we are all Christians we should not condemn any of them for lack of knowledge. But in order for one to grow spiritually one really must study.