chrysostom

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
The sad thing is that conservative and well-qualified judges
Good to see you recognize those are two different groups.

Kidding. I liked the president's first nominee. I supported this one going in. At present I don't. I'm mulling about him.

Kavanaugh did a few very stupid things during the proceeding that give me pause. First, he decided to advance an attack against some senators present, invoking conspiracy and threw some questions back at senators examining him. That's the sort of entitled arrogance I see in more than a few of my friends born to privilege. It was troubling temperament to see in a judge. To his credit, he caught some of it and came back to apologize for the questioning part, which was out of place.

That could be reformed. A judge is accustomed to asking, not answering questions. It's second nature. They're also a wee bit arrogant, which that sort of power will do to them. It's one reason why higher justices that are worth a darn will surround themselves with able and strong willed clerks. People who can both lessen the workload and challenge the judge's thinking.

The second thing he did that was pointlessly, infuriatingly stupid was to lie about his drinking in college. Of course he occasionally drank too much in college--as did by and large all of us. And we've had presidents who drank and did other things earlier in life, from Bush to Obama. No one expects to find a saint in the offering.

The only reason to deny drinking too much from time to time as a young man went to his fear that it made her testimony more credible. But that was a bad choice, had the same calculated feel as his subsequent "I went to Yale and did a lot of things all the time" in lieu of answering yes or no directly on questions involving whether or not those who said he did drink to excess once upon a time were lying.

The answer, if he had to try to bs us on the point, should have been, "I drank in college. I did not drink to the point where I wasn't in control of my actions or subsequently could not recall them." But then, he never should have taken that denial to begin with.

He'd already denied being at the party in question, being with Ford. So what if he drank too much in college sometimes? So what if he drank too much sometimes as a legal teenager getting ready for college?

What, an admission on that point means he was guilty or makes it more likely? Really? That was true of a lot of legal 18 year olds at parties and in colleges. It's as damning as saying, "Yes, I'm right handed" and someone suggesting it made him more likely to have been the culprit because Ford recalled the culprit being right handed.

The last stupid thing he did involved misrepresenting the testimony of others as refuting or rejecting Ford's narrative. Saying you don't remember isn't saying something didn't happen. The judge knows that. He repeatedly misrepresented that in his closing remarks to the Committee.

In short, Kavanaugh needed better prep for the hearing. He should have been told the thing I always told my clients before allowing them on the stand. I'd say, remember that you are the wronged and you are right. Be brief in your responses, honest in your recollection, and civil in your answering. You are neither prosecutor nor judge. Be humble and let your sincerity and focus lead them to your side of the question.


Kavanaugh forgot that or never learned it and it hurt him when so much of his response was terrific.

will hesitate to even want to be nominated for the Supreme Court because they KNOW about the methods the left will employ to try to disqualify them.
Nah. You'll just have to pick Mormons and Muslims from here on out.

:plain: So, Mormons then.

Bork...Thomas...Kavanaugh.
Garland.

Any liberal judges will not worry about the process because the Republicans play fair!
Garland. Or, never let it be said that you lack a sense of humor.

They would never stoop so low as the Dems did during the hearings on Bork, Thomas and Kavanaugh.
You don't have to stoop when you're already down there.
 
Last edited:

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member

When Vice-President Joe Biden was the Senate Judiciary Chairman in 1992 he said a hypothetical Supreme Court opening should not be filled during a presidential election year, and that it was acceptable for the court to only have eight justices temporarily.

After refusing Garland a hearing during an election year Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said:

"President Obama and his allies may now try to pretend this disagreement is about a person, but as I just noted, his own vice president made clear it’s not. The Biden Rule reminds us that the decision the Senate announced weeks ago remains about a principle, not a person."

Biden told the Senate during the Thomas hearing that an FBI investigation was useless but despite that this year the Democrats yelled from the rooftops that Kavanaugh's hearing wouldn't be legitimate unless there was one!

The Democrats demand one set of standards from the Republicans but when it comes to them they declare that those same standards shouldn't apply to them.

And they get away with it because the mainstream press let's them.

Now I would like your opinion on the Bork hearing and the Thomas hearing and the way that Dr. Ford's testimony ended up going public.

Thanks!
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
When Vice-President Joe Biden was the Senate Judiciary Chairman in 1992
He's entitled to think whatever he wants. That's not what the Constitution says and what the republicans did then is exactly what Graham was outraged about, in potential, the democrats looking to do to him and his now, except the dems lack the real muscle to manage it without some help.

The Democrats demand one set of standards from the Republicans but when it comes to them they declare that those same standards shouldn't apply to them.
What I've noted is that hypocrisy abounds. The republicans are upset now that the democrats might do to them what they did to Obama.

That's one reason I proposed changing the advice and consent window, or rather establishing a reasonable window to vote up or down. I'd also give Congress a one strike limit. Meaning that provided the American Bar approves the candidate as qualified, Congress can only play politics once. After that the nominee is appointed without them.

And they get away with it because the mainstream press let's them.
In what world does the press get a vote? I missed that one, living here.

Now I would like your opinion on the Bork hearing and the Thomas hearing and the way that Dr. Ford's testimony ended up going public.
I agree with Graham on the way the democrats played this. I think they did a disservice to both parties while playing a longer political end game. I've noted that, along with Grahams raging hypocrisy on the point. So he's right, but he's wrong, if you get my drift.

Bork was brilliant, but I don't believe he belonged on the Court. His opinions were too radical. I'd have felt the same way about someone on the left sharing a similarly charged judicial philosophy. The Hill/Thomas debacle was just that and should have been handled the way this one should have been handled...but neither were.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
He's entitled to think whatever he wants. That's not what the Constitution says and what the republicans did then is exactly what Graham was outraged about, in potential, the democrats looking to do to him and his now, except the dems lack the real muscle to manage it without some help.

I think that those who wrote the Constitution would agree with Biden and with McConnell who insisted in a floor speech that the vacancy should be filled by the next president.

“The next justice could fundamentally alter the direction of the Supreme Court and have a profound impact on our country, so of course the American people should have a say in the court’s direction," he said.

"The Senate will continue to observe the 'Biden Rule' so the American people have a voice in this momentous decision. The American people may well elect a president who decides to nominate Judge Garland for Senate consideration. The next president may also nominate somebody very different. Either way, our view is this: Give the people a voice in filling this vacancy."


In what world does the press get a vote? I missed that one, living here.

The press should be the bedrock of our democracy and when I was younger it was. But what is passing for "truth" today in the mainstream press is not the truth and they know it is not the truth. But just like the rest of the self-righteous liberals they have decided that the end justifies the means.

I agree with Graham on the way the democrats played this. I think they did a disservice to both parties while playing a longer political end game.

I'm glad that you see that and it not only do a disservice to the process but to the United States of America. People down here where I live comment that America is beginning to resemble a banana republic with the way the process has been perverted and how the Obama Justice Department and FBI and the CIA were and are so dishonest!

Bork was brilliant, but I don't believe he belonged on the Court. His opinions were too radical.

The decision as to whether or not Bork belonged on the Supreme Court is supposed to be based on one thing. Was he qualified? And he was highly qualified but since he believed that the Justices shouldn't legislate from the bench and he was a strict consitutionalist the Democrats attacked his beliefs and didn't follow the laws concerning Bork's qualification.

And the leader of the smear job was none other than Ted Kennedy of Chappaquiddick fame! The Democrats were really concerned about women's rights then, right?

I'd have felt the same way about someone on the left sharing a similarly charged judicial philosophy. The Hill/Thomas debacle was just that and should have been handled the way this one should have been handled...but neither were.

So you think that more should be be considered about a Supreme Court Justice that his or her qualifications? The Republicans only considered the qualifications both of Obama's nominees and should serve as the only way that Supreme Court Justices should be confirmed.

And do you agree with Justice Thomas when he said that he was a victim of a high tech lynching?
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
I think that those who wrote the Constitution would agree with Biden and with McConnell who insisted in a floor speech that the vacancy should be filled by the next president.
Funny that they didn't put it in that way then.

“The next justice could fundamentally alter the direction of the Supreme Court and have a profound impact on our country, so of course the American people should have a say in the court’s direction," he said.
Except most voting Americans didn't vote for the sitting president. So that's not helpful.

The press should be the bedrock of our democracy and when I was younger it was.
I think and thought they should be the watchers. We're the bedrock.

But what is passing for "truth" today in the mainstream press is not the truth and they know it is not the truth.
I don't think the press has changed much, except that it stopped giving as many passes to those in power, like JFK in his day.

But just like the rest of the self-righteous liberals they have decided that the end justifies the means.
That's funny too. See: Fox News, where America gets its...and the right decrying the left as immoral and unpatriotic so frequently its darn near a mantra.

I'm glad that you see that and it not only do a disservice to the process but to the United States of America. People down here where I live comment that America is beginning to resemble a banana republic with the way the process has been perverted and how the Obama Justice Department and FBI and the CIA were and are so dishonest!
Again, how much power do you guys need before you realize how ridiculous you sound playing the victim card with both houses of congress and the presidency in your grasp. And in a short while the Court as well.

It's just bafflingly funny. And equally sad.

The decision as to whether or not Bork belonged on the Supreme Court is supposed to be based on one thing. Was he qualified?
A justice isn't a car mechanic and so his judicial philosophy is in the mix. It will directly bear on his qualification.

It's like this. Say you were one of the cardinals for the Catholics and it was time to elect a new pope. Someone suggests Father Dunken for the job. He's a priest. He's without a hint of scandal. His piety is without question...but he believes in flagellation. He's just not going to get the job. :nono:

And he was highly qualified but since he believed that the Justices shouldn't legislate from the bench and he was a strict consitutionalist the Democrats attacked his beliefs and didn't follow the laws concerning Bork's qualification.
No laws were broken in rejecting Bork. Not a one.

So you think that more should be be considered about a Supreme Court Justice that his or her qualifications?
I think you appear to believe qualifications is a lot more limited in scope than it is or has been, historically. We'll come back to that in a moment.

The Republicans only considered the qualifications both of Obama's nominees and should serve as the only way that Supreme Court Justices should be confirmed.
Actually, they obstructed the first of his nominees that they were able to. Prior to that he had nominated two for the bench, Sotomayor and Kagan.

Sotomayor was passed by the full senate in Obama's second year, 68-31, with all 31 nays coming from the republicans. Only 6 republicans crossed party lines to vote aye. And if you're counting, the senate republicans lacked the numbers to stop the nominee had those 6 stayed the course. She had received the highest possible endorsement of the American Bar Association and was imminently qualified as a jurist.

Kagan came up a year later. The vote was 63-37, with all 37 nays coming from republicans. This time only 4 broke ranks. Again, the republicans did nothing noble or bipartisan. A handful who weren't needed in both instances confirmed the president's choice. Kagan received the highest endorsement of the American Bar Association and was also imminently qualified as a jurist.

So that to the notion that the republicans were better behaved or that purely professional standing was the entirety of qualification.

And do you agree with Justice Thomas when he said that he was a victim of a high tech lynching?
No and I found the use offensive because it summoned up the memory of people of color being killed and denied right over their color without any reason attaching to the act. There were serious charges raised against the justice, charges that had nothing to do with his color and were neither unfounded nor unreasoned.

That those should have been handled differently is something I've long believed, as I do in this case.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
No laws were broken in rejecting Bork. Not a one.

It was worse than a crime when the Democrats chose Ted Kennedy of Chappaquiddick fame to tell lies about Robert Bork. "Kennedy said that adding Bork to the Supreme Court would force women into back-alley abortions and black Americans back to segregated lunch counters, adding that with Bork, “the doors of the federal courts would be shut on the fingers of millions of citizens for whom the judiciary is — and is often the only — protector of the individual rights that are the heart of our democracy.”

If Kennedy was held to the same standards which Kavanaugh has been held then Teddy should have gone straight to prison. We read the following about him:

"On July 1, 1987, Ted Kennedy, then a senator and a leading light within the Democratic Party, took to the Senate floor to denounce Robert Bork, whom Ronald Reagan had just nominated for the Supreme Court."

Just eight years after Chappaquiddick Teddy was back in the graces of the Democratic Party and even more impressive--a leading light among the Democrats!!!

Must have made you proud!
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
It was worse than a crime when the Democrats chose Ted Kennedy of Chappaquiddick fame to tell lies about Robert Bork.

"Kennedy said that adding Bork to the Supreme Court would force women into back-alley abortions and black Americans back to segregated lunch counters, adding that with Bork, “the doors of the federal courts would be shut on the fingers of millions of citizens for whom the judiciary is — and is often the only — protector of the individual rights that are the heart of our democracy.”

If Kennedy was held to the same standards which Kavanaugh has been held then Teddy should have gone straight to prison. We read the following about him:

"On July 1, 1987, Ted Kennedy, then a senator and a leading light within the Democratic Party, took to the Senate floor to denounce Robert Bork, whom Ronald Reagan had just nominated for the Supreme Court."

Just eight years after Chappaquiddick Teddy was back in the graces of the Democratic Party and even more impressive--a leading light among the Democrats!!!

Must have made you proud!
Made who proud? :plain: If you meant that for me you must be high or crazy, my not having at any point said a single, solitary positive thing about Ted Kennedy or even democrats.

What's the oddest thing about that is that I gave you a few things to chew on in rebutting more than a few points in your last and you pick the one issue that wasn't in it and which I had previously taken the, "I don't know what happened there/only Kennedy knows" road.

As to what I did contest and provide some background for you to respond to:

1. The next president should choose bit, which simply isn't the process.

2. If the American people had a say it wouldn't be good news for Kavanaugh, given most of them voted for someone other than the president.

3. The mainstream press complaint runs afoul of Fox News, the self-professed place where most Americans get their news and a conservative bastion.

4. The "banana republic" belief runs into the problem/fact that conservatives control both houses of congress, the presidency, and the Court.

5. The qualification of justices isn't simply about their judicial competency, because republicans almost to a man opposed previous democratic nominees despite their endorsement by the American Bar Association as being highly qualified (see: Kagan and Sotomayor).

6. And I took exception to Thomas attempting to play the race card over a hearing about something completely unrelated.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
there there
only a lawyer can assure you that it is okay to vote for baby killers
it is settled law
-but-
that lawyer cannot explain what the fight is all about
I can
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
there there
only a lawyer can assure you that it is okay to vote for baby killers
You don't have to be a lawyer to understand the law and the truth here. Every national candidate by both parties has advanced a position of belief in limited abortion rights, separated by degree. And none of those candidates was or will end the practice. Not until most of the American people support the idea.

it is settled law
Right. Those of us who want to change that have to change minds and hearts of people or we're living in a fantasy.

One way to make that change is to expand footholds within the democratic party (where there is actually a pro-life contingent) and by attempting to move republicans into an actual uniform stand (there being a large contingent that support abortion rights).

What we don't and shouldn't do is mischaracterize people who vote for democratic candidates as baby killers.

I've set out the figures on how Americans are likely to receive that and it will not help the cause of drawing most of them into a better understanding.


-but-
that lawyer cannot explain what the fight is all about
I can
You don't need to be a lawyer to understand what this fight is about. But that "what" isn't as simple as abortion rights. If you don't know that you don't understand the politics involved. There's payback for the lost nominee, there's a real fear of Kavanaugh acting as a shield for the current president against charges during his tenure. And there's the fear that the court might disregard Roe, though I think that's mistaken given what it would invite from the public.

As to the question of abortion and that public, Gallup within this year as:

29% of Americans support abortion rights under any circumstances.
20% of Americans oppose abortion rights under any circumstances.
50% of Americans support abortion rights under some circumstances.

So more Americans support abortion rights without caveat than oppose it and most Americans support abortion rights in some form.

Some good news in the polling. Among those who support abortion rights that support appears to largely rest in the first trimester, rapidly dwindling thereafter. By the third trimester 81% of Americans oppose legal abortions and only 13% support it.

When a woman's life is endangered, abortion rights are favored 83% to 15% a response essentially unchanged since the polling in 2003.
Rape and incest still has popular support in terms of abortion rights, with 77% for and 21% opposed, up 5% since 2003.
Child born with life-threatening illness is in third place, with 67% for and 31% opposed, up 7% since 2003.


On how Americans feel about abortion rights as they currently stand:

Satisfied as is 37%
Dissatisfied and want stricter, 22%
Dissatisfied and want less strict 19%
Dissatisfied, but want same 10%
No opinion, 12%

538 polling from 2017 looked for the party line of demarcation among their respective rank and file, asking if abortion should be legal in most cases or illegal in most cases.

Republicans came in 65% illegal in most cases to 34% saying it should be legal in most cases.
Independents came in 38% illegal in most cases to 60% saying it should be legal in most cases.
Democrats came in 22% illegal in most cases, to 75% saying it should be legal in most cases.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
If you meant that for me you must be high or crazy, my not having at any point said a single, solitary positive thing about Ted Kennedy or even democrats.

Since you said some outlandish things comparing the Republicans with the Democrats it becomes obvious where you stand and its not with the Republicans. You said:

So that to the notion that the republicans were better behaved or that purely professional standing was the entirety of qualification.

The Republicans were indeed better behaved that the Democrats in regard to the way both treated those nominated for the Supreme Court!

You even expressed your disgust with the way Kavanaugh was treated during the hearing.
 
Last edited:

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
The sad thing is that conservative and well-qualified judges will hesitate to even want to be nominated for the Supreme Court because they KNOW about the methods the left will employ to try to disqualify them.

Bork...Thomas...Kavanaugh.

Any liberal judges will not worry about the process because the Republicans play fair!

They would never stoop so low as the Dems did during the hearings on Bork, Thomas and Kavanaugh.

What about Roy Moore?

:plain:
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Since you said some outlandish things comparing the Republicans with the Democrats
List them. I don't believe I've said one, let alone more than that, but I'm game to consider what you feel is that thing.

it becomes obvious where you stand and its not with the Republicans.
I went into the nomination and even this latest round of hearings on the public record that I supported his confirmation, our differences on judicial philosophy notwithstanding. I did the same with Gorsuch. I felt the same way about Kagana and Sotomayor. I have had serious differences with all of them, but they were all rated as highly as could be by the American Bar Association and I believe that coupled with the president's pleasure should determine the point absent some intervening concern that goes to their propriety.

You said: So that to the notion that the republicans were better behaved or that purely professional standing was the entirety of qualification.

Right. Emphasis on the THAT as a dismissive gesture. They've both played politics with the Court for a very long time now. And to say a plague on both their houses is somehow to side with one is unfathomably compromised, Jerry.

The Republicans were indeed better behaved that the Democrats in regard to the way both treated those nominated for the Supreme Court!
They not only weren't, I've literally demonstrated that they weren't.

You even expressed your disgust with the way Kavanaugh was treated during the hearing.
Right. Which is hardly siding with the democrats on the committee. The two sides play politics and played it in the hearing, to the detriment of both Ford and Kavanaugh.

The only thing that happened to move me from my former position was the choice the nominee made in responding aggressively, evasively and, on at least one topic, dishonestly. It wasn't necessary. He should have either had better counsel or minded the advice, because what he did lost my vote of confidence and if a couple of senators on the republican side feel the same way about that, he lost the chance to continue good work as well.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The only thing that happened to move me from my former position was the choice the nominee made in responding aggressively, evasively and, on at least one topic, dishonestly.

Where is your proof that he responded dishonestly?

And do you deny that Dianne Feinstein acted dishonestly?
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Where is your proof that he responded dishonestly?
In the pudding of his responses, which avoided direct denial on the point of others attestations AFTER he had earlier declared that he was never inebriated to that point. It's that which subsequently caused a couple of people who knew him from college to denounce the effort. You want particulars?

And do you deny that Dianne Feinstein acted dishonestly?
From what I know she played politics instead of taking the matter directly and immediately to the majority Chair and requesting further investigation and action at that time. I wouldn't characterize that as dishonest, though I would say and have said it's the sort of partisan power play I find beneath the process as it should function.
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
I should have locked my thread

the fbi is investigating
-but-
wait
wait
wait
we can't limit the time or scope
-and-
wait
wait
wait
we need time to review the report
 

chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
morning sickness
open with snl
skyping again
mika is off
wait
wait
wait
I didn't get the memo
-but-
I could have wrote it
it is not easy being a baby killer
without the lawyers
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Which is hardly siding with the democrats on the committee. The two sides play politics and played it in the hearing, to the detriment of both Ford and Kavanaugh.

The Democrats told one lie after another during the hearings. I am not aware of any the Republicans told in this hearing or in the one for the candidates appointed by the Democrats. Or perhaps you believed Spartacus?

From what I know she played politics instead of taking the matter directly and immediately to the majority Chair and requesting further investigation and action at that time. I wouldn't characterize that as dishonest, though I would say and have said it's the sort of partisan power play I find beneath the process as it should function.

You call Feinstein's actions as being political but I say that she was plain dishonest in her actions. If she would have played fairly all of this Ford stuff would have never been made public and she knew it.

Your response is why I can see that you are not neutral, as you claim. You may actually think that you are but your response proves otherwise to me.
 
Top