"Man falls according as God's providence ordains, but he falls by his own fault" ~John Calvin
chrysostom
- Thread starter chrysostom
- Start date
"Man falls according as God's providence ordains, but he falls by his own fault" ~John Calvin
Can any one believe they are elect when they are not?
I will wait.I'll bring my best thoughts on that tomorrow.
opcorn:
*wait for me.
No hurry.
It's important for the Calvinists to be able to carry the "ELECT Card" in their wallets and purses. It makes them feel superior to others.
Calvin was one of the REAL Monsters that walked the earth at some time in history.
Calvinists are a wee bit confused.
It's kinda amusing that a lot of Calvinists don't believe the same applies to Israel when they are called God's elect.
A lot of Calvinist are replacement theologist.
It depends on their knowledge- if one has full knowledge of Godly wisdom, then yes. If not, then no- Lucifer became Satan in that he thought he was right, just as atheists and dangerous heretics.
It isn't rocket science- the Bible is not some impossibly complex thing. Just as Calvinism is plainly there, so to is your answer as to if you are potentially the elect.
You all are the one's who make it hard. God's preeminence, omniscience, providence- the elect, those who God speaks to, and the ultimate goal.. IS RIGHT THERE.
free will explains it all
-but
-only if you choose to believe that
-but
-only if you choose to believe that
You just had to go and say that...You saw what I did there.
Stoicism- an ancient Greek school of philosophy founded at Athens by Zeno of Citium. The school taught that virtue, the highest good, is based on knowledge, and that the wise live in harmony with the divine Reason (also identified with Fate and Providence) that governs nature, and are indifferent to the vicissitudes of fortune and to pleasure and pain.
Saint Augustine interpreted the Scriptures through his understanding of stoic philosophy. This was not something unique to Augustine either, it was a pretty standard measure for most theologians of the first centuries.
The whole forefront of the free will crowd basically consisted of prejudice against stoic notions, but they never actually produced much in the way of actually refuting it. In order for the Catholic Church to harbor control, free will theology had to be maintained because in doing so, it gave authority to people in opening and closing the doors of salvation.
So basically, after the Church utilized these theologians, they threw them away and assumed power- and voila!
The Dark Ages
Protestants have no business criticizing Reformed doctrine.
Saint Augustine interpreted the Scriptures through his understanding of stoic philosophy. This was not something unique to Augustine either, it was a pretty standard measure for most theologians of the first centuries.
The whole forefront of the free will crowd basically consisted of prejudice against stoic notions, but they never actually produced much in the way of actually refuting it. In order for the Catholic Church to harbor control, free will theology had to be maintained because in doing so, it gave authority to people in opening and closing the doors of salvation.
So basically, after the Church utilized these theologians, they threw them away and assumed power- and voila!
The Dark Ages
Protestants have no business criticizing Reformed doctrine.
theophilus
Well-known member
[MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION],
I don't know if this will answer you question but here goes:
Mark 16 ~16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
If we do not believe the testimonies of God, the Spirit and Jesus Christ we are damned.
2 Thess. 2 ~10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
If He has chosen some for salvation, the implication is that some are not chosen.
John 6 ~37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Implies that there are some the Father did not give to Jesus.
Rev. 21 ~27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
There are some NOT written in the Lamb's book of life.
Eph. 2 ~8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Some do not receive this gift.
Joshua 11 ~18 Joshua made war a long time with all those kings.
19 There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle.
20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.
Some are created to be destroyed.
Prov. 16 ~4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
HE made us for Himself.
Romans 9 ~14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
The only way for me to wrap my mind around these things is to realize that God is the Sovereeign of the universe and we are His creatures. Just as we do what we will with our "things" (kids, animals, etc...) He does HIS WILL with His, to show His power and His glory.
Next:
Jeremiah 9 ~9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Our hearts are the seat of our wills. For (Matt. 15:19) 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Romans 3 ~22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Not everyone believes.
Jude ~4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Some, will never believe.
Psalm 81 ~12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
As in the case of Judas.
Human will:
Again, the heart is the seat of the will. It has become corrupted by sin.
Prov. 4 ~23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
Eph 2 ~1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodyand the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Before every sinner is set a life of virtue and piety (holiness) and a life of sinful indulgence (belief or unbelief). Which will he choose? The latter. Why? Because his heart is sinful. He will NOT come to Christ because he does not want to, and he does not want to because his heart hates Jesus and loves sin (Jeremiah 17:9 again). The human will, the heart, is in bondage to sin, from birth.
The sinner, in his sinful nature, could never have a desire or a will for God. For this he must be born again.
Why would anyone choose a life of virtue and piety? Because God has given him a new heart and a new nature.
In order for any sinner to be saved three things are indispensable: God the Father has to purpose his salvation, God the Son has to purchase it and God the Spirit has to apply it. Without these three things we have ZERO willingness to respond to the proclamation of the Gospel. To wit,
Romans 3 ~10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
The Gospel is not preached because men are free moral agents...they are not (as shown above and throughout all of Scripture). The Gospel is preached because we are command to preach it, to go and tell what great things the Lord hath done for us who believe. And to them that perish it is foolishness but unto those who are saved it is the power of God to salvation to everyone who believes.
If you are saved it is because you believe. If you believe it is because you were chosen.
***
[MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION], I believe God is Sovereign. If someone calls me a "Calvinist" for that, then I say "whatever." If people hate me for that, I am sorry for their hatred.
People hate me for being a woman.
People hate me for being Caucasian.
People hate me for being happy.
People hate me for being tall.
:idunno:
We're haters and murderers and everything else on Paul's lists.
But if I have heard the gospel and believed, it has been a gift from God and nothing from within myself.
And it is the same with you and john w and heir and everyone else who claims the name of Christ.
He chooses us because, left to ourselves, we would not and could not ever choose Him.
I don't know if this will answer you question but here goes:
Mark 16 ~16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
If we do not believe the testimonies of God, the Spirit and Jesus Christ we are damned.
2 Thess. 2 ~10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
If He has chosen some for salvation, the implication is that some are not chosen.
John 6 ~37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Implies that there are some the Father did not give to Jesus.
Rev. 21 ~27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
There are some NOT written in the Lamb's book of life.
Eph. 2 ~8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Some do not receive this gift.
Joshua 11 ~18 Joshua made war a long time with all those kings.
19 There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle.
20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses.
Some are created to be destroyed.
Prov. 16 ~4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
HE made us for Himself.
Romans 9 ~14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
The only way for me to wrap my mind around these things is to realize that God is the Sovereeign of the universe and we are His creatures. Just as we do what we will with our "things" (kids, animals, etc...) He does HIS WILL with His, to show His power and His glory.
Next:
Jeremiah 9 ~9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Our hearts are the seat of our wills. For (Matt. 15:19) 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Romans 3 ~22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Not everyone believes.
Jude ~4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Some, will never believe.
Psalm 81 ~12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
As in the case of Judas.
Human will:
Again, the heart is the seat of the will. It has become corrupted by sin.
Prov. 4 ~23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.
Eph 2 ~1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodyand the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Before every sinner is set a life of virtue and piety (holiness) and a life of sinful indulgence (belief or unbelief). Which will he choose? The latter. Why? Because his heart is sinful. He will NOT come to Christ because he does not want to, and he does not want to because his heart hates Jesus and loves sin (Jeremiah 17:9 again). The human will, the heart, is in bondage to sin, from birth.
The sinner, in his sinful nature, could never have a desire or a will for God. For this he must be born again.
Why would anyone choose a life of virtue and piety? Because God has given him a new heart and a new nature.
In order for any sinner to be saved three things are indispensable: God the Father has to purpose his salvation, God the Son has to purchase it and God the Spirit has to apply it. Without these three things we have ZERO willingness to respond to the proclamation of the Gospel. To wit,
Romans 3 ~10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
The Gospel is not preached because men are free moral agents...they are not (as shown above and throughout all of Scripture). The Gospel is preached because we are command to preach it, to go and tell what great things the Lord hath done for us who believe. And to them that perish it is foolishness but unto those who are saved it is the power of God to salvation to everyone who believes.
If you are saved it is because you believe. If you believe it is because you were chosen.
***
[MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION], I believe God is Sovereign. If someone calls me a "Calvinist" for that, then I say "whatever." If people hate me for that, I am sorry for their hatred.
People hate me for being a woman.
People hate me for being Caucasian.
People hate me for being happy.
People hate me for being tall.
:idunno:
We're haters and murderers and everything else on Paul's lists.
But if I have heard the gospel and believed, it has been a gift from God and nothing from within myself.
And it is the same with you and john w and heir and everyone else who claims the name of Christ.
He chooses us because, left to ourselves, we would not and could not ever choose Him.
that was way too long
-please don't do that again
-please don't do that again
theophilus
Well-known member
theophilus
Well-known member
Did it make your eyes cross?
It did mine...and I'm in bi-focals.
(I think it's long because of the line spacing.)
Did it make your eyes cross?
It did mine...and I'm in bi-focals.
(I think it's long because of the line spacing.)
you could be banned for posts like that
-what are you listening to now?
-starvista
-oldies but goodies?
-better than the news
-tired of trump?
-I'm not a chump
-have you ever bought one of those collections?
-no I just watch and listen to the promo
-is that timelife?
-they do most of them
-it's a long ways to november
-six months
-that's a lot of collections
-need something to watch and listen to while waiting for a decent post
-starvista
-oldies but goodies?
-better than the news
-tired of trump?
-I'm not a chump
-have you ever bought one of those collections?
-no I just watch and listen to the promo
-is that timelife?
-they do most of them
-it's a long ways to november
-six months
-that's a lot of collections
-need something to watch and listen to while waiting for a decent post
heir
TOL Subscriber
The only two Gentiles blessed in the so called NT (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) were those who were worthy of a blessing (Genesis 12:3 KJV) by recognizing their position as a dog under the master's table and/or going through the proper channel but rather them going through the proper channels of recognizing their place and/or blessing Israel.
Luke 7:1-2 KJV Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience of the people, he entered into Capernaum. 2 And a certain centurion's servant, who was dear unto him, was sick, and ready to die.
proper channel:
Luke 7:3 KJV And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant.
Why would this Gentile's request even be heard? Was it because the Lord was sent to Gentiles and went to all peoples? No, of course not.
Luke 7:4-5 KJV And when they came to Jesus, they besought him instantly, saying, That he was worthy for whom he should do this:5 For he loveth our nation, and he hath built us a synagogue.
And the Gentile woman?
Mark 7:25-27 KJV For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet: 26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. 27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
She recognized Him as Lord and understood her position
Mark 7:28 KJV And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.
You couldn't say that about Gentiles like us. There is no Israel to bless today. There is no Israel to align ourselves with which to be blessed. And even if there were, here was our condition in time past Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV. We had no hope in time past. Well, that is unless God had a mystery concerning us...
I'm not sure how the two examples of Gentiles above in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John helps your case. They don't.
Why don't you believe to whom the Lord was sent in M, M, L and John and why (Matthew 15:24 KJV, Romans 15:8 KJV)?
Why do you not believe Paul's testimony concerning Gentiles such as we in that time past (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV)?
now heir is matching theo with long posts
-it must be important
-please let me know if it is
-if
-you have the time to read it
-it must be important
-please let me know if it is
-if
-you have the time to read it