Christians worship Christ; JW's do not!

JudgeRightly

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Yes, I've never seen that before. You and glory have put forth a few great proofs for our Triune God that I haven't heard yet. I'm trying to write them down.

THREE QUESTIONS TO DETERMINE IF THE TRINITY IS BIBLICALLY TRUE OR FALSE. If any one of these questions can be answered 'no,' then the Trinity can be rejected as an unbiblical belief. But if all three can be answered 'yes,' then the concept of the Trinity can be accepted as true.

1. Does the Bible mention three distinct persons?

2. Does the Bible refer to each of these persons as God?

3. Does the Bible teach there is only one God?


The answers:

1. Are three distinct persons mentioned? YES.
A. The Father (1 John 3:1)
B. The Son (1 John 1:3)
C. The Holy Spirit (John 14:6; 14:26; 15:26; 16:13-14; Romans 15:30; Ephesians 4:30)


2. Are each of these persons referred to as God? YES.
A. God the Father (1 Thessalonians 1:1)
B. God the Son (John 1:1; 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9)
C. God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4)


3. Is there only one God? YES.
(see Deuteronomy 4:35-39; Psalm 86:10; Isaiah 45:5; 45:22)



Here you go.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
You've got it backwards.

When God uses us or our in the Bible referring to himself, it's not just an example of the Royal We, it's the ORIGIN of the Royal We.
Yes and no.

Royal “we”
The British monarch Henry II is credited with using the royal “we” first, referring to his connection with God, and the fact that he and God were acting in concert. Richard I often used the royal “we” to assert his rule by divine right, which is the belief that the king answered to no one but God.​
 

genuineoriginal

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It also teaches that the Son is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God.
No, the verses used for those do not clearly state that the Son is God nor that the Holy Spirit is God.
The scriptures clearly teach that God is the Father alone.

So either there's three Gods, which could contradict the rest of the Bible, which teaches that there is only one God,
Since the scriptures teach that there are many gods, your argument is invalid.

or there is one God, and three Persons.
That is never taught in scriptures, therefore the arguments between Trinitarians and Non-Trinitarians will never end.
 

Tambora

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Some people think God is speaking in majestic plural.
The royal we, or majestic plural (pluralis maiestatis), is the use of a plural pronoun (or corresponding plural-inflected verb forms) to refer to a single person holding a high office, such as a sovereign monarch or religious leader like the Pope.​

Other people think God is speaking to the angels.
That "majestic plural" thing was done by kings and queens that falsely claimed they were representative of GOD on earth.
They use the plural form of "us" and "our" because scripture has GOD as a plural unity, so they mimic GOD since they claim they are GOD on earth.

If you want to use the "majestic plural" as correct, then you are going to have to accept that GOD is a plural unity.
 

JudgeRightly

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Yes and no.

Royal “we”
The British monarch Henry II is credited with using the royal “we” first, referring to his connection with God, and the fact that he and God were acting in concert. Richard I often used the royal “we” to assert his rule by divine right, which is the belief that the king answered to no one but God.​
Pretty darn sure the Bible came loooooong before King Henry II.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
No, that is not what I said.
I asked you to provide the verses that you are relying on to claim that Jesus is God come in the flesh.

That would seem to be a problem, since I have searched the scriptures to see whether those things were so.
I accept the entire Bible, not just a few verses here or there.

The Bible clearly states that God sent Jesus to be our savior.
Do you have a problem with that?


Do you think that God does not send others to be the savior of His people in times of need?

1 Samuel 9:15-16
15 Now the Lord had told Samuel in his ear a day before Saul came, saying,
16 To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him to be captain over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me.​


Then you do deny Jesus is God come in the flesh.

Why won't you just come right out and admit it?

Afraid?
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
I already know it all too well.

Um no, obviously you don't. Your cult teaches Jesus (sucks I have to answer for a JW about his organizations own teachings) really is Michael before Jesus came to earth. So with that in mind, the answer "the WORD" is really Michael in JW doctrine. :sigh: For further info to the readers, here is a link to the official site of JW's. Who Is Michael the Archangel?

Out of interest, was this comment that you made "God created us in their image. We are what? Body, Soul, Spirit?" you implying that the Father, Son and HS were made up of those things, since its often taught that we are made out of flesh/body, soul and spirit?

I simply stated what the Genesis account says, which says,
"26 And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

genuineoriginal

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That "majestic plural" thing was done by kings and queens that falsely claimed they were representative of GOD on earth.
They use the plural form of "us" and "our" because scripture has GOD as a plural unity, so they mimic GOD since they claim they are GOD on earth.

If you want to use the "majestic plural" as correct, then you are going to have to accept that GOD is a plural unity.
I provided the main options that Non-Trinitarians use to explain the verses.

Neither the answers from Non-Trinitarians nor the answers from Trinitarians are good explanations for the verses.

Genesis 1:26-27 NOG
26 Then Elohim said, “Let us make humans in our image, in our likeness. Let them rule the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the domestic animals all over the earth, and all the animals that crawl on the earth.”
27 So Elohim created humans in his image.
In the image of Elohim he created them.
He created them male and female.​


Elohim is the transliteration of the Hebrew word for gods, plural.
The God of the Bible is called "Gods" in every verse that uses the word Elohim.

There are several explanations for that.

Elohim
Main article: Elohim
A common name of God in the Hebrew Bible is Elohim (Hebrew: About this sound אלהים‬ (help·info)‎). Despite the -im ending common to many plural nouns in Hebrew, the word Elohim when referring to God is grammatically singular, and takes a singular verb in the Hebrew Bible. The word is identical to the usual plural of el meaning gods or magistrates, and is cognate to the 'lhm found in Ugaritic, where it is used for the pantheon of Canaanite gods, the children of El and conventionally vocalized as "Elohim" although the original Ugaritic vowels are unknown. When the Hebrew Bible uses elohim not in reference to God, it is plural (for example, Exodus 20:2). There are a few other such uses in Hebrew, for example Behemoth. In Modern Hebrew, the singular word ba'alim ("owner", "lord", or "husband") looks plural, but likewise takes a singular verb.

A number of scholars have traced the etymology to the Semitic root *yl, "to be first, powerful", despite some difficulties with this view.[29] Elohim is thus the plural construct "powers". Hebrew grammar allows for this form to mean "He is the Power (singular) over powers (plural)", just as the word Ba'alim means "owner" (see above). "He is lord (singular) even over any of those things that he owns that are lordly (plural)."

Theologians who dispute this claim cite the hypothesis that plurals of majesty came about in more modern times. Richard Toporoski, a classics scholar, asserts that plurals of majesty first appeared in the reign of Diocletian (ce 284–305).[30] Indeed, Gesenius states in his book Hebrew Grammar the following:[31]

The Jewish grammarians call such plurals … plur. virium or virtutum; later grammarians call them plur. excellentiae, magnitudinis, or plur. maiestaticus. This last name may have been suggested by the we used by kings when speaking of themselves (compare 1 Maccabees 10:19 and 11:31); and the plural used by God in Genesis 1:26 and 11:7; Isaiah 6:8 has been incorrectly explained in this way). It is, however, either communicative (including the attendant angels: so at all events in Isaiah 6:8 and Genesis 3:22), or according to others, an indication of the fullness of power and might implied. It is best explained as a plural of self-deliberation. The use of the plural as a form of respectful address is quite foreign to Hebrew.​

Mark S. Smith has cited the use of plural as possible evidence to suggest an evolution in the formation of early Jewish conceptions of monotheism, wherein references to "the gods" (plural) in earlier accounts of verbal tradition became either interpreted as multiple aspects of a single monotheistic God at the time of writing, or subsumed under a form of monolatry, wherein the god(s) of a certain city would be accepted after the fact as a reference to the God of Israel and the plural deliberately dropped.[32]

The plural form ending in -im can also be understood as denoting abstraction, as in the Hebrew words chayyim ("life") or betulim ("virginity"). If understood this way, Elohim means "divinity" or "deity". The word chayyim is similarly syntactically singular when used as a name but syntactically plural otherwise.

In many of the passages in which elohim occurs in the Bible it refers to non-Israelite deities, or in some instances to powerful men or judges, and even angels (Exodus 21:6, Psalms 8:5) as a simple plural in those instances.​
 

Tambora

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Yes, I've never seen that before. You and glory have put forth a few great proofs for our Triune God that I haven't heard yet. I'm trying to write them down.
I love studying with GloryDaz because she is willing to trust scripture no matter what her own personal convictions might be as to what is "mean".
I don't have a problem with GOD being mean at times and nice at times.
I think GOD is the nicest you are ever gonna find, and the meanest you are ever gonna find.
After all, there is a purpose for both. Ecc 3:1-8
So to make a claim that only peace is the right way is not correct at all.
 

genuineoriginal

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Then you do deny Jesus is God come in the flesh.

Why won't you just come right out and admit it?
I believe what the Bible states about it.
That is why I asked you to provide the verses you are using as the basis of the question.

There is no doubt that Jesus came in the flesh, the Bible clearly states that.
There is no doubt that Jesus is the Son of God, the Bible clearly states that.

So, where are you getting the ideas that allow you to drop "Son of" from "Son of God" when speaking of Jesus?
Those ideas are not coming from the Bible, since Jesus is called the "Son of God" 46 times in the Bible and never called God, since that is what the Father is called.
 

genuineoriginal

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Um no, obviously you don't. Your cult teaches Jesus (sucks I have to answer for a JW about his organizations own teachings) really is Michael before Jesus came to earth. So with that in mind, the answer "the WORD" is really Michael in JW doctrine. :sigh: For further info to the readers, here is a link to the official site of JW's. Who Is Michael the Archangel?
That is a good reason to call Jehovah Witness a cult.
Teaching that Jesus is the archangel Michael is just as non-Biblical as teaching that God is a Trinity.
 

Tambora

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Um no, obviously you don't. Your cult teaches Jesus (sucks I have to answer for a JW about his organizations own teachings) really is Michael before Jesus came to earth. So with that in mind, the answer "the WORD" is really Michael in JW doctrine. :sigh: For further info to the readers, here is a link to the official site of JW's. Who Is Michael the Archangel?
Yep.
I talk with every JW that comes to my door, and every single one of them claimed that Jesus was the angel Michael.
They ignore scripture that says that GOD asked no angel to sit at His right side. Heb 1:3
 

glorydaz

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Who claimed that God formed Jesus to be "a god".
The Bible states that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.
The Bible states that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God.
The Bible states that God gave Jesus all judgment.
The Bible states that God put everything under Jesus' feet with the sole exception of Himself.

So you are left with only two choices.

Jesus is God or Jesus is not God.

The Lord our God is ONE LORD.

Deut. 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: 5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.​

Jesus corrected satan....don't make Him correct YOU.



Deut. 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the Lord your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

Matthew 4:6-7
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

 

Tambora

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So you are left with only two choices.

Jesus is God or Jesus is not God.

The Lord our God is ONE LORD.
Deut. 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: 5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.​

Jesus corrected satan....don't make Him correct YOU.



Deut. 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the Lord your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.

Matthew 4:6-7
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Can't you just hear these clowns if they had been present at the time, hollering at Jesus "You ain't GOD, mister!"
Denying what GOD has said, and what the apostles have said.
 

JudgeRightly

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No, the verses used for those do not clearly state that the Son is God nor that the Holy Spirit is God.

THAT is because you're focusing on each verse individually.

Try taking every verse together. For example:

http://kgov.com/deity

The scriptures clearly teach that God is the Father alone.

Nope.

See the link above.

Since the scriptures teach that there are many gods, your argument is invalid.

Scripture teaches that there is one God (in my previous post, I capitalized the "g" in "Gods" on purpose).

That is never taught in scriptures, therefore the arguments between Trinitarians and Non-Trinitarians will never end.

Refer to the Text in the Box above. There's your Scripture that teaches God is One God, Three Persons, which argument you still have not refuted.
 

genuineoriginal

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So you are left with only two choices.

Jesus is God or Jesus is not God.
No, I am left with only one choice.
Jesus is the Son of God.

This is what scripture clearly states over and over and over.

Now you are are left with two choices.

  1. Believe what the scripture clearly states over and over and over.
  2. Ignore what scripture clearly states over and over and over and look for proof texts that support the teachings of mainstream Christianity that are not taught by the Bible.
 

glorydaz

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I believe what the Bible states about it.
That is why I asked you to provide the verses you are using as the basis of the question.

There is no doubt that Jesus came in the flesh, the Bible clearly states that.
There is no doubt that Jesus is the Son of God, the Bible clearly states that.

So, where are you getting the ideas that allow you to drop "Son of" from "Son of God" when speaking of Jesus?
Those ideas are not coming from the Bible, since Jesus is called the "Son of God" 46 times in the Bible and never called God, since that is what the Father is called.

Jesus is also called the Son of Man, and the Word who was with God and was God, and Emmanuel, and the First and the Last, and the Alpha and the Omega, and the root and offspring of David, and the Creator of all things.
 
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