Christians worship Christ; JW's do not!

NWL

NWL

Active member
Tambora said:
That is how you present the truth.
You cannot come up with a mathematical equation for 1 Jim, 1 Judy, and 1 Timmy = 1 family.
But we know that 1 Jim, 1 Judy, and 1 Timmy does indeed = 1 family, just as 1 Adam + 1 Eve = 1 flesh, and just as 1 Father, 1 Son, and 1 Holy Spirit = 1 GOD.
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The only issue is that Adam and Eve being one isnt the same and the Father, Son and HS being one.

Firstly, scripture directly states that a man and his wife are one, nowhere do we find any verse saying that the Father, Son and HS are one.

Secondly, no one would deny that whilst a man and his wife are one flesh that they are still separate beings. This is not the case with the trinity doctrine, which teaches that even though God is one who is three persons, those persons are not individual beings, but rather one being, God.
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
There is; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. There's many different ways to try to explain what the 'Trinity' is, however, I believe we must just, trust what the Bible says and not try to push any 'personal explanation' as 'Gospel,' so to say. There are three, yet, those three are ONE. That's the pure and the simple of it.
 
drbrumley

drbrumley

Well-known member
Philippians 2:5-8 NIV

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
Apple7 said:
Orthodox Christians has always been Trinitarian, for thousands of years.
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Nontrinitarian views differ widely on the nature of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Various nontrinitarian philosophies, such as Adoptionism, Monarchianism, and Subordinationism existed prior to the establishment of the Trinity doctrine in AD 325, 381, and 431, at the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and Ephesus.[7] Nontrinitarianism was later renewed by Cathars in the 11th through 13th centuries, in the Unitarian movement during the Protestant Reformation, in the Age of Enlightenment of the 18th century, and in some groups arising during the Second Great Awakening of the 19th century.
The doctrine of the Trinity, as held in mainstream Christianity, is not present in the other major Abrahamic religions.​

The problem with trinitarian vs. nontrinitarian will never go away because of the lack of evidence for the Trinity doctrine in the Bible.
 
G

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
God, in His infinite wisdom has given mankind what He desires to have us know. There are things presented in His written word that are up to personal interpretation and not fully explained to us in this life. One need only try to interpret the book of Revelation, in all of its 'symbolism, etc' to realize we're just not privy to certain things.
 
Tambora

Tambora

Get your armor ready!
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Grosnick Marowbe said:
There is; God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. There's many different ways to try to explain what the 'Trinity' is, however, I believe we must just, trust what the Bible says and not try to push any 'personal explanation' as 'Gospel,' so to say. There are three, yet, those three are ONE. That's the pure and the simple of it.
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It's so simple.
Some folks just want to complicate it.
 
drbrumley

drbrumley

Well-known member
NWL said:
The only issue is that Adam and Eve being one isnt the same and the Father, Son and HS being one.

Firstly, scripture directly states that a man and his wife are one, nowhere do we find any verse saying that the Father, Son and HS are one.

Secondly, no one would deny that whilst a man and his wife are one flesh that they are still separate beings. This is not the case with the trinity doctrine, which teaches that even though God is one who is three persons, those persons are not individual beings, but rather one being, God.
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:think: God created us in their image. We are what? Body, Soul, Spirit?
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
Ask Mr. Religion said:
If you reviewed the debate in question, you would know that the doctrine of the Trinity makes no such claim. Therein you will find:

...confusion lies in confusing ontology and distinctions with respect to the Godhead. Ontologically, there is no difference between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three, separate, divine essences (or beings). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-participants of the one divine essence. When speaking of the Godhead in formal theological terms, we would properly say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three personal subsistences of the one, divine, essence.
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Humans are all personal subsistences of the one human essence.
Fish are all personal subsistences of the one fish essence.
Birds are all personal subsistences of the one bird essence.

You are trying to claim that the one divine essence is a being and that there are three separate beings that are all that same being.
 
drbrumley

drbrumley

Well-known member
Ask Mr. Religion said:
I will ignore the opening claims above and respond to the substance of your erroneous and jejune conclusion.

God is one What (essence) and three Who's (subsistences, aka Persons).

Essence and Person are not the same things. Essence refers to the being of God, while Person is used here as substance within being (subsisting as, subsistence).

The term Person does not mean a distinction in essence but a different subsistence in the Godhead. A subsistence in the Godhead is a real difference but not an essential difference in the sense of a difference in being. Each Person of the Godhead subsists or exists "under" the pure essence of deity. Subsistence is a difference within the scope of being, not a separate being or essence. All persons in the Godhead have all the attributes of deity.

Formally speaking, subsistence is the means of individuation of essence with respect to existence. Less formally, subsistence is the means by which essence exercises existence, or even more succinctly, subsistence means something that really exists.

So we can say that Person, with reference to the Trinity, means the one divine essence in a specific manner of existence and distinguished by this specific manner of existence from that one divine essence and the other Persons.

The divine essence does not exist independently along with the three Persons. The divine essence has no existence outside of and apart from the three Persons. For if the divine essence did, there would be no true unity, but a division that would lead into tetratheism.

Hence, Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and co-eternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

If we look a bit deeper the statement above can be parsed as follows:

1. There is in the divine Being (God) but one indivisible essence (ousia, essential, being), see Deuteronomy 6:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4, Galatians 3:20, 1 Timothy 2:5.
2. The nature of the one divine being, God, is inclusive of all the attributes of His being, that is, God is His attributes.
3. In this one divine Being (God) there are three personal distinctions (what the church throughout history calls Persons), or individual subsistences (personal modes of existence) Father, Son and Holy Spirit, see Genesis 1:1, 26, 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1, Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14.
4. The whole undivided essence of God belongs equally to each of the three persons, see John 6:27, Romans 1:7, 1 Peter 1:2, John 1:1, 14, Romans 9:5, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:8, 1 John 5:20, Acts 5:3-4, 1 Corinthians 3:16.
5. The subsistence and operation of the three persons in the divine Being is marked by a certain definite order, see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, 1 John 4:14, John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, John 16:13-14.
6. There are certain personal attributes by which the three persons are distinguished, see 1 Corinthians 8:6, Revelation 4:11, Revelation 1:1, John 3:16-17, 1 Corinthians 8:6, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, John 1:1, 16:12-15, Matthew 11:27, Revelation 1:1, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Matthew 1:21, John 4:42, Genesis 1:2, Job 26:13, Psalm 104:30, John 16:12-15, Ephesians 3:5, 2 Peter 1:21, John 3:6, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 1:2, Isaiah 61:1, Acts 10:38.


AMR
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Outstanding!
 
NWL

NWL

Active member
drbrumley said:
:think: God created us in their image. We are what? Body, Soul, Spirit?
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Is this you trying to imply that the body, soul and spirit resembles each person of the trinity? If so you are very wrong.

God is a spirit, the holy spirit is a spirit (the name kind of gives it away, I know), and Jesus when with God at the creation of man was also a spirit. So when God created us in his image it certainly wasn't talking about bodily form, otherwise we too would be spirit beings, which we aren't.
 
genuineoriginal

genuineoriginal

New member
KingdomRose said:
I don't put any stock in what "Mr. Religion" says. He apparently hasn't spoken with very many Trinitarians.
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Ask Mr. Religion is a Trinitarian who is an expert in Reformed (Calvinist) theology and Trinitarianism.

KingdomRose said:
I have, and all of them that I have had conversations with will say this:

The Father is God (that's 1 God)

The Son is God (that's 1 God)

The Holy Spirit is God (that's 1 God)


If you add them up, that's THREE GODS. Sorry, you can't get around that. 1 + 1 + 1 = 3
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Anyone that can count can see that, but Trinitarians are obsessed with proving that 1 + 1 + 1 = 1.
 
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