Christian Florist Can Lose Personal Assets for Declining Gay Wedding

TomO

Get used to it.
Hall of Fame
Laws are based on reason. That's why we have trials: not just to determine who did what to whom, but to consider the mitigating factors and use them to establish a resolution. The message on the cake, for example, is a specific factor that creates a specific mitigating circumstance involving the baker's rights of 'speech'. The baker may well have the right, under his freedom of speech, to refuse to sell a cake with a message on it that he does not endorse. Even though he would not have the right to refuse to sell a cake with no message on it to the nazi.

One of the things I find annoying about all these threads involving the abuse of consumer rights laws is that the people who write about them never bother to include or consider these mitigating factors. And yet it's upon these kinds of factors that the cases will ultimately be decided, and the fines assessed if there are any.

:think: Actually, there were mitigating factors regarding the florist case. According to what I have read the florist in question has been doing business with the people filing suit for a number of years and had a good relationship with them. She explained to them that while she had no problem selling to them per-se she did not agree with same sex marriage and did not want her product being used in such a way.

:plain: In short....she had no problem selling to gays. She did have a problem catering to a specific event.

So....How about if the Jonah Goldberg Soul Food Restaurant refused to cater a Klan function? Is this a legitimate refusal when just last week they catered a dinner for both the Southern Poverty Law center as well as the NAACP? :idunno:
 

Jose Fly

New member
Religionists were never free to break the law. Nor should they be.
They honestly just don't get this at all. We've been around, and around, and around this countless times, and the fundamentalists and libertarians just are not capable of comprehending the fundamental issues. Even the judge expressed this in his ruling...

He rejected the argument that the state’s anti-discrimination law violates the free exercise of religion guaranteed by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. Ekstrom wrote:

“Again, defendant mixes the distinction between belief and conduct, clergy and laity, and the distinction between accommodation and public accommodation, and as a result cites two cases that are distinguishable on their facts.”

Ultimately, the decision rested on the distinction between religious belief and the exercise of trade and commerce under laws that forbid discrimination.
 

Jose Fly

New member
Ideally ... the African American couple tells two friends ... and then they tell two friends ... and so on and so on, etc.
Yeah, just like what happened in the Jim Crow south! Oh....wait....:(

What happens to a business owner who happens to be African American or Jewish and refuses to make a cake for a Neo-Nazi that reads "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children."?
Again, the legal concepts just seem to be beyond your capabilities. What you're describing is being asked to engage in direct and specific speech, which is a very different issue than providing flowers at a wedding, which is not speech at all.

The gay couple didn't ask her to say or write anything, let alone anything unusual or unique. Just arrange flowers for our wedding, exactly like she did for everyone else.
 

shagster01

New member
They honestly just don't get this at all. We've been around, and around, and around this countless times, and the fundamentalists and libertarians just are not capable of comprehending the fundamental issues.

Again, why give your money to someone who wants to do business with you when you can sue someone who doesn't and make them do it instead? Makes complete sense, right?
 

PureX

Well-known member
:think: Actually, there were mitigating factors regarding the florist case. According to what I have read the florist in question has been doing business with the people filing suit for a number of years and had a good relationship with them. She explained to them that while she had no problem selling to them per-se she did not agree with same sex marriage and did not want her product being used in such a way.
But her disagreement with their marriage had nothing to do with the service she is engaging in public commerce to provide. So it was completely irrelevant to the terms of the sale.
In short....she had no problem selling to gays. She did have a problem catering to a specific event.
Her "problems" had nothing to do with the terms or requirements of the sale of her services. Her clients asked for nothing that she was not in business to provide and nothing that she was not willing to provide to others.
So....How about if the Jonah Goldberg Soul Food Restaurant refused to cater a Klan function? Is this a legitimate refusal when just last week they catered a dinner for both the Southern Poverty Law center as well as the NAACP? :idunno:
It depends on why they refuse. There are many legitimate reasons why they might do so. And there are a few illegitimate reason why they might do so. Like I said, these issues are resolved according to those specific mitigating factors that we are all not privy to, or in many cases are just ignoring.
 

TomO

Get used to it.
Hall of Fame
But her disagreement with their marriage had nothing to do with the service she is engaging in public commerce to provide. So it was completely irrelevant to the terms of the sale.
Her "problems" had nothing to do with the terms or requirements of the sale of her services. Her clients asked for nothing that she was not in business to provide and nothing that she was not willing to provide to others.
It depends on why they refuse. There are many legitimate reasons why they might do so. And there are a few illegitimate reason why they might do so. Like I said, these issues are resolved according to those specific mitigating factors that we are all not privy to, or in many cases are just ignoring.


Mitigating factors come in handy when you don't want to answer a question. :plain:

Please cite a legitimate reason (since they are so many) and please be aware; Their "problems" have nothing to do with the terms or requirements of the sale of their services. Their clients have asked for nothing that they are not in business to provide and nothing that they were not willing to provide to others.
 

TomO

Get used to it.
Hall of Fame
Are racists a protected class in any anti-discrimination laws?

Are you making the case that the "Christian Identity" Religion is not worthy of protection under the Civil Rights Act of 1964? :juggle:
 

PureX

Well-known member
Mitigating factors come in handy when you don't want to answer a question.
And yet they're essential if you actually want an answer, instead of a blind opinion.
Please cite a legitimate reason (since they are so many) and please be aware; Their "problems" have nothing to do with the terms or requirements of the sale of their services.
… Do not have the space/resources/etc. to accommodate them, are already otherwise engaged, believe the clients present a risk of some kind, past difficulties with same client, client requires special services, client unclear about the terms of the transaction, … There are many legitimate reasons why a business would refuse service. But the key is that they are directly related to the proposed commercial exchange.

Refusing to sell a hat to a man who has no head could be a legitimate reason to refuse service. Refusing to sell a hat to a man who has no feet, would likely not be.
 

TomO

Get used to it.
Hall of Fame
And yet they're essential if you actually want an answer, instead of a blind opinion.
… Do not have the space/resources/etc. to accommodate them, are already otherwise engaged, believe the clients present a risk of some kind, past difficulties with same client, client requires special services, client unclear about the terms of the transaction, …

These are garbage reasons which are easily circumvented and you know it.....But I'm not going to keep chasing you about an answer you don't want to give. :yawn:
 

TracerBullet

New member
Would Jesus Discriminate?


barronelle stutzman is stirring up headlines. the 70-year-old grandmother is the owner of Arlene’s Flower Shop in washington state, and identifies as a devout christian. she’s also opposed to gay marriage – so much so that she refused to provide flowers to a same-sex couple for their wedding.

this week a washington judge ruled that refusal was precisely what it sounds like – discrimination – and therefore, illegal according to the state’s consumer protection and anti-discrimination law.

washington state attorney general bob ferguson has made the decision to seek legal fees and penalties not only against the flower shop, but also against stutzman herself.

the law allows for penalties of $2,000 per violation, which means that for every gay or lesbian couple stutzman refuses to serve she could receive the hefty fine. according to stutzman’s lawyer, these fines, in addition to her attorneys’ fees and court costs for the pending appeal could reach well into seven figures.

still, the soon-to-be bankrupt granny is sticking to her guns by refusing to serve gay and lesbian couples. she’s digging in her heels – in her own words, ‘because of my relationship with Jesus Christ.’

that’s facsinating to me…considering that it was jesus christ himself who showed ‘the full extent of his love’ by serving his disciples – including judas, whom he knew had betrayed him.

certainly selling out the messiah for just thirty pieces of silver was reason enough for jesus to refuse to serve the back-stabbing disciple, but that’s not what he did.

instead, just as he had planned, jesus loved them – all of them – to the full. he got up from the supper, laid his garments to the side and took the form of the lowliest servant – putting water in a basin, he began to wash the disciples’ feet, wiping off the dirt and grime from their journey to the promised land of their ancestors with the towel around his waist.

and after washing each and every one of them – including judas the betrayer – he re-donned his garments and invited them to share in the first eucharist, reclining with them at the table, saying, ‘do this – what i have done for you, do for one another.’

this, he told them, is how the rest of the world ‘will know that you are my disciples – if you have love for one another.’

according to jesus in john’s gospel, ‘love for one another’ – that new and important command from the christ we claim to follow – is lived out in the act of service.

so back to the flowers…

for stutzman to claim that it’s because of her relationship with jesus that she’s refusing to serve another human being – regardless of their orientation – is, quite simply, terribly misguided.

whether its refusing to provide floral arrangements, or refusing to bake a cake, or refusing to take photographs for a same-sex wedding, doing so ‘in the name of jesus’ is nothing short of hijacking his life, teachings and example of radical inclusivity, steeped in humility and motivated by love.

don’t be fooled – this isn’t about that all-too-often-tossed-around-catchphrase :: religious liberty.

the courts aren’t rushing into the private sector with a police-state mentality, forcing non-affirming pastors to perform gay weddings, nor intimidating conservative churches into accepting same-sex couples into membership or coercing ministers to teach ‘pro-gay’ theology from the pulpit against their personal religious convictions.

these laws are simply upholding a standard we’ve actually dealt with in this country before – that public business owners cannot choose to serve certain customers and not others, regardless of their religious convictions.

to do so is discrimination.

to discriminate in the name of jesus? i suspect that may be an adventure in missing the point.
 

PureX

Well-known member
These are garbage reasons which are easily circumvented and you know it..
They're completely legitimate. If I have a hall that can only seat 100 people, and you want me to host a party for 150, I could legitimately refuse your request for my services. If I am already booked on the date you seek my services, I could legitimately refuse your request for my services. If I have served you in the past and you have shown yourself to be a problem, I could legitimately refuse your request for my services, based on those past problems. If you required special serves that I do not normally provide, I could legitimately refuse your request for my services. And if either of us appears to be unclear about the transaction we are discussing, I could legitimately refuse your request for my services.

What about any of these examples I gave do you find unreasonable, or disingenuous? How are any of these not legitimate reasons for a business to refuse a request for service?
...But I'm not going to keep chasing you about an answer you don't want to give. :yawn:
An answer given, that you just didn't want to hear.
 

rexlunae

New member
It was, however, predicted by quite a few critics of same sex marriage.

Yeah? Well, I predicted that you guys were going to regret placing your religion in the way of someone else's rights, because you wouldn't like the answer.
 
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