Christ is the Elects Substitute.

[beloved57]

The substitutionary death of Christ is a vital Gospel Doctrine. The word means:

a person or thing acting or serving in place of another.

to put (a person or thing) in the place of another.
to take the place of; replace.

Christ as Surety took the place of sinners who had transgressed Gods Law and now have to bear the punishment of death, even eternal death. Not only did He substitute in their death for transgression, but He substituted in living the life that demands 100 % Obedience to God, to Love God Supremely with all our heart and our neighbor as ourselves, perfectly, not deviating in word, though or deed. This the God-Man Surety substitute did for Gods Elect.

Now Jesus Christ was the elect sinners Surety Substitute in Eternity Past Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament/covenant.

This testament/covenant was no doubt the everlasting covenant referred to here Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Christs Blood was shed in time due to a suretyship engagement made before time, hence He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and those who would be recipients of this covenant had their names written in the Lambs book of life before the world began. Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[beloved57]

The Lord Jesus Christ stood as the elect sinners substitute in time at the Cross. As subtitute at the Cross, Christ was made a curse and died under the penalty of Gods Law for the sins of all Gods elect or Sheep. It was the iniquity of all Gods Elect tht were laid upon Him Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Thats because He was their substitute, and the iniquity they incurred was instead of being laid to their charge, it was laid to His Charge.

Once again He as substitute bare their sins charged to Him Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Christ bore all the punishment due to the elect sinners He substituted for, its now impossible for Gods vengeance to be upon them since Christ has made full satisfaction for them to Gods Law and Justice. And also upon this great fact stands their Justification before God.

 

[beloved57]

Christ was and is the elects sinner substitute surety not only in His sin penalty ending death, but also in His God Honoring life of Righteousness, living for them that righteous life that Gods Holy Law requires, summed up here, when Jesus was asked: Matt 22:35-40

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Remember Paul wrote to the New Covenant Believers Rom 13:8-10

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:13-14

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Now Christ as Surety Substitute has fulfilled the Law here for them. This He did in His Suretyship substitue vicarious life for Gods elect, as the Last Adam.

 

[Derf]

The substitutionary death of Christ is a vital Gospel Doctrine. The word means:

a person or thing acting or serving in place of another.

to put (a person or thing) in the place of another.
to take the place of; replace.

Christ as Surety took the place of sinners who had transgressed Gods Law and now have to bear the punishment of death, even eternal death. Not only did He substitute in their death for transgression, but He substituted in living the life that demands 100 % Obedience to God, to Love God Supremely with all our heart and our neighbor as ourselves, perfectly, not deviating in word, though or deed. This the God-Man Surety substitute did for Gods Elect.

Now Jesus Christ was the elect sinners Surety Substitute in Eternity Past Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament/covenant.

This testament/covenant was no doubt the everlasting covenant referred to here Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Christs Blood was shed in time due to a suretyship engagement made before time, hence He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and those who would be recipients of this covenant had their names written in the Lambs book of life before the world began. Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

"Before time"? What does that mean?

 

[beloved57]

"Before time"? What does that mean?

It means before time. Before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The word world here is chronos :

1. time either long or short

 

[Idolater]

The Elect is the Church is the Body of Christ.

 

[beloved57]

The Elect is the Church is the Body of Christ.

I agree with that.

 

[JudgeRightly]

It means before time.

That's what we're asking you about. What does that mean.

Before the world began

We're not asking about "before the world began." We're asking about "before time."

2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The word world here is chronos :

1. time either long or short

Actually, this passage doesn't say "before the world began" in Greek.

It says "pro chronon aionion."

There's no verb "began" there, as most translators (including the NKJV and KJV, among others) insert, and which you also seem to be basing your beliefs upon.

So to define "before time" as "before the world began" when there is no verb "began" in the passage, means you're already on shaky ground. There's no word "world" in the passage either.

Tell us, B57: What does "before time" mean? Can you explain it?

I assert you cannot, because it is an irrational concept, and therefore impossible, meaning that it should be discarded as supported by the Bible, a perfectly rational collection of texts.

 

[Derf]

It means before time. Before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The word world here is chronos :

1. time either long or short

Before the world began makes sense. "Before time" means "the time prior to when there was time" which you might recognize as incomprehensible.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The Elect is the Church is the Body of Christ.

Many of the Elect in the Bible went to hell, because they disobeyed God.

Elect doesn't mean saved. It means chosen for a task, just as we today "elect" people in our government, so too God elected certain people in the past to accomplish His will.

Some obeyed Him, most did not.

If you're willing to say that the "Elect" are the Body of Christ," then you must also be willing to say that there are those in the Body of Christ who will go to hell for their disobedience, in direct contradiction to what makes them saved in the first place.

Do you see the problem?

You need to watch Bob's "Chosen; It's not what you think" video, linked here:

 

[beloved57]

That's what we're asking you about. What does that mean.



We're not asking about "before the world began." We're asking about "before time."



Actually, this passage doesn't say "before the world began" in Greek.

It says "pro chronon aionion."

There's no verb "began" there, as most translators (including the NKJV and KJV, among others) insert, and which you also seem to be basing your beliefs upon.

So to define "before time" as "before the world began" when there is no verb "began" in the passage, means you're already on shaky ground. There's no word "world" in the passage either.

Tell us, B57: What does "before time" mean? Can you explain it?

I assert you cannot, because it is an irrational concept, and therefore impossible, meaning that it should be discarded as supported by the Bible, a perfectly rational collection of texts.

It means before time began. I showed you that.

 

[JudgeRightly]

It means

Saying it doesn't make it so.

before time began.

That's what we're asking you about. What does that mean, B57?

I showed you that.

You showed me nothing.

 

[beloved57]

Christ is the elect sinners substitute in His Intercession and Advocacy right now in Heaven for them 1 Jn 2:1-2

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Heb 7:25

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Christ is their Righteousness, Jesus Christ the Righteous, its an representative righteousness !

God has made Him to be to them Righteousness 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

 

[Derf]

Christ is the elect sinners substitute in His Intercession and Advocacy right now in Heaven for them 1 Jn 2:1-2

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Heb 7:25

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Christ is their Righteousness, Jesus Christ the Righteous, its an representative righteousness !

God has made Him to be to them Righteousness 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

"Elect sinners"? God elected people for the purpose of sinning? I've never heard a Calvinist be that honest about his doctrine before. Well done! Now are you ready to reject it because you've made God out to be desiring people to sin?

 

[beloved57]

"Elect sinners"? God elected people for the purpose of sinning? I've never heard a Calvinist be that honest about his doctrine before. Well done! Now are you ready to reject it because you've made God out to be desiring people to sin?

Yes, Elect sinners. God elected sinners for Salvation, so yeah, He elected them to be sinners. However there are sinners He made and it wasnt for Salvation, but for damnation, and consequently Christ didnt become their substitute, they on their own.

 

[Idolater]

"Elect sinners"? God elected people for the purpose of sinning? I've never heard a Calvinist be that honest about his doctrine before. Well done! Now are you ready to reject it because you've made God out to be desiring people to sin?

It doesn't matter. We all individually have to make sense of our faith in Jesus. It all has to come together somehow for us, cogently.

I mean, we hope it's cogent. We're hoping there's not a glaring leak in our theology. Something that runs headlong directly into a Bible passage somewhere, that seems to utterly rule it out; and requires us to generate more and more arcane explanations to support, sustain and substantiate our theological view.

It doesn't matter really because we all share that same one faith (cf. Eph 4:5) in Christ, however all the rest of our theory on God and Jesus works itself out. So long as it somehow doesn't wing around and logically exclude true faith in Jesus, we have to somehow see through the morass, and cling to what binds us together, which is our faith in the Lord.

@beloved57 has always been seen as a straight shooter, that's his or or and nor her reputation going back years. You can always ask them questions directly, challenge them, the only thing they do employ skillfully is they stay on topic. If you veer from the topic, then you get ignored. It's a powerful tool, provides a great challenge to try to breech that defense.

They constantly admit that whenever they use "the Elect" they always mean that it's perfectly synonymous with the Church and with the Body of Christ. So since many of their proof texts support corporate predestination for certain, and only possibly individually in the way that their brand of Calvinism believes and teaches ...

... As a former convinced Calvinist, my own estimation for the way to penetrate their defense is to get them to see the forest for the trees (Br. var. see the wood for the trees), that if all their proof texts more than anything else, is talking about the Church as a Body primarily, and only perhaps secondarily as individual members of that Body, then their whole ecclesiology ought to change since ecclesiology depends a lot on our view, as Calvinistic thinkers (of which I still am, of a Catholic sort (I think I'm intellectually Jesuit, from what I understand)), that foreknowledge and predestination play a role in the history of the Church.

I only shoot straight when it comes to guns, myself.

 

[Idolater]

... they on their own.

They sure are. Only get one shot at this and people are dying everyday without believing. This is why the Church has always been and remains evangelistic. We preach the Good News, about Jesus, Who rose from the dead, Who died for our sins as an eternal sacrifice, Who is the eternally begotten Son of God, Who sits at the right hand of the Father in Heaven.

==
You don't want to be on your own. You against your sin? You'll wrestle with it for eternity, with zero relief, forever, that will be your lot in eternal life, if you fail to believe in Jesus Christ now. Believe out of fear, go right ahead, but do it boldly, we are commanded in Sacred Scripture to boldly approach the throne of glory, so believe in and out of fear if you must! but do it boldly. Boldly approach the throne of grace, boldly request mercy from the throne of mercy.

Do it.

Cue B57: "Off topic"

 

[beloved57]

idolater

They sure are. Only get one shot at this and people are dying everyday without believing. This is why the Church has always been and remains evangelistic. We preach the Good News, about Jesus, Who rose from the dead, Who died for our sins as an eternal sacrifice, Who is the eternally begotten Son of God, Who sits at the right hand of the Father in Heaven.

Yes, He sets at the right hand to make intercession for Gods Elect or Church which He died for and rose again Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Hes the Elects substitute/surety not the whole world of people friend.

 

[Derf]

It doesn't matter. We all individually have to make sense of our faith in Jesus. It all has to come together somehow for us, cogently.

I mean, we hope it's cogent. We're hoping there's not a glaring leak in our theology. Something that runs headlong directly into a Bible passage somewhere, that seems to utterly rule it out; and requires us to generate more and more arcane explanations to support, sustain and substantiate our theological view.

It doesn't matter really because we all share that same one faith (cf. Eph 4:5) in Christ, however all the rest of our theory on God and Jesus works itself out. So long as it somehow doesn't wing around and logically exclude true faith in Jesus, we have to somehow see through the morass, and cling to what binds us together, which is our faith in the Lord.

@beloved57 has always been seen as a straight shooter, that's his or or and nor her reputation going back years. You can always ask them questions directly, challenge them, the only thing they do employ skillfully is they stay on topic. If you veer from the topic, then you get ignored. It's a powerful tool, provides a great challenge to try to breech that defense.

They constantly admit that whenever they use "the Elect" they always mean that it's perfectly synonymous with the Church and with the Body of Christ. So since many of their proof texts support corporate predestination for certain, and only possibly individually in the way that their brand of Calvinism believes and teaches ...

... As a former convinced Calvinist, my own estimation for the way to penetrate their defense is to get them to see the forest for the trees (Br. var. see the wood for the trees), that if all their proof texts more than anything else, is talking about the Church as a Body primarily, and only perhaps secondarily as individual members of that Body, then their whole ecclesiology ought to change since ecclesiology depends a lot on our view, as Calvinistic thinkers (of which I still am, of a Catholic sort (I think I'm intellectually Jesuit, from what I understand)), that foreknowledge and predestination play a role in the history of the Church.

I only shoot straight when it comes to guns, myself.

It does matter.
Galatians 1:8-9 (KJV) 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.