Christ glorified God as the Rock, not Peter

CherubRam

CherubRam

New member
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 4:18[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][ The Calling of the First Disciples ] As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 10:2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;…[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mark 3:16 NIV[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter…[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]KJV of Mark 3:16.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And Simon he called Peter. Strong’s Greek. #1941, Epikaleoi: call-ed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke 6:14[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Simon (whom he named [call-ed] Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew,… Strong’s Greek. #1941, Epikaleoi: call-ed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 10:5[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 10:32[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 11:13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, 'Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Zechariah 6:12[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of Yahwah.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 15:5[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 16:17[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Jesus [Yahshua] replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on [this/that] [rock/Rock] I will build my [congregation] church,... [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NASB[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 4:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Now as Jesus [Yahshua] was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It seems that Simon already had the nick name [Peter/Rock] before Yahshua met him. Therefore Yahshua did not name him Rock, but was only calling him by his nick name. That would mean that Yahshua was speaking of the Father being that Rock, which is used often in scriptures. It's like saying, I call you by you nick name Rock, but upon THAT Rock [The Father] I will build my congregation. The word [church] is not scriptural. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This parable in scripture Should have been translated as: "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on The Rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on The Rock."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yahwah being That Rock. Yahwah is called The Rock many times in scriptures. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Did Yahshua want the Congregation to be built upon God The Rock, or Simon whom he called Peter?[/FONT]
 
Nameless.In.Grace

Nameless.In.Grace

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CherubRam said:
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 4:18[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][ The Calling of the First Disciples ] As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 10:2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;…[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mark 3:16 NIV[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]These are the twelve he appointed: Simon (to whom he gave the name Peter…[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]KJV of Mark 3:16.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And Simon he called Peter. Strong’s Greek. #1941, Epikaleoi: call-ed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke 6:14[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Simon (whom he named [call-ed] Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew,… Strong’s Greek. #1941, Epikaleoi: call-ed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 10:5[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 10:32[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 11:13[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, 'Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Zechariah 6:12[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of Yahwah.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 15:5[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 16:17[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Jesus [Yahshua] replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on [this/that] [rock/Rock] I will build my [congregation] church,... [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]NASB[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mat 4:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Now as Jesus [Yahshua] was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It seems that Simon already had the nick name [Peter/Rock] before Yahshua met him. Therefore Yahshua did not name him Rock, but was only calling him by his nick name. That would mean that Yahshua was speaking of the Father being that Rock, which is used often in scriptures. It's like saying, I call you by you nick name Rock, but upon THAT Rock [The Father] I will build my congregation. The word [church] is not scriptural. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This parable in scripture Should have been translated as: "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on The Rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on The Rock."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yahwah being That Rock. Yahwah is called The Rock many times in scriptures. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Did Yahshua want the Congregation to be built upon God The Rock, or Simon whom he called Peter?[/FONT]
Click to expand...

Are you starting trouble with the Catholics again? [emoji50][emoji854]


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csuguy

csuguy

Well-known member
In 1 Peter 2, Peter makes clear that THE living stone, proper, is Christ. He also notes that we are like living stones ourselves, and that we, together, are being built into a spiritual house and priesthood. He makes not special mention of himself, but clearly defers to Christ and considers himself part of the latter group along with us - LIKE living stones, but not THE living stone.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
Hey CherubRam,

I read your post. You've brought up an interesting point but I think there might be a different explanation that sortof makes more sense with the evidence we have.


[FONT="]It seems that Simon already had the nick name [Peter/Rock] before Yahshua met him. Therefore Yahshua did not name him Rock, but was only calling him by his nick name.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. I think Jesus [I][U][B]gave[/B][/U][/I] Simon the name Peter (which means "rock" or "stone") and was not merely calling him that because he was already nicknamed that.

I think John 1:42 shows us that:

"And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, “You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas” (which is translated, A Stone). (NKJV)

See? Jesus says, "You [I][U]are[/U][/I] Simon." Because that was his name.

But then He says, "You [I][U]shall be called[/U][/I] Cephas" Indicating that he will be called Cephas, (Peter, Rock).

Jesus gave Simon his new name.

When we read the Scripture verses that you stated above we have to remember that none of them were probably even written prior to 48 A.D. So at the time the N.T. was written, well, yeah, Simon's name had been changed in the past because it was changed somewhere back when Jesus was on the earth...30-33 A.D. So when we read all those verses saying "Simon who was called Peter" or "Simon called Peter"....well, he was called "Peter" by Christ first. All of those writings are simply recording that Simon was called Peter...but they can say that because Jesus gave him that name.


[QUOTE]That would mean that Yahshua was speaking of the Father being that Rock, which is used often in scriptures. It's like saying, I call you by you nick name Rock, but upon THAT Rock [The Father] I will build my congregation. The word [church] is not scriptural. [/FONT][/QUOTE]

If we take the time to look more closely at Matthew 16 and use the logic you describe above....the passage in question really doesn't make much sense.

I agree that God is referred to as "Rock" often in Scriptures. But God likes to share His roles with His children.

So even though 1 Samuel 2:2 says,: "“No one is holy like the Lord, For there is none besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God."

Isaiah 51:2 can say: "Look to the rock from which you were hewn, And to the hole of the pit from which you were dug. Look to Abraham your father,"

God shares his "rockiness" with Abraham. And Jesus shares it with Peter. And we are all called to be living stones of the household of God.

God shares.

Without citing verses, God also shares in a similar way: being a light to the world, His priesthood, His ability to create life, the role of bringing His Good News to the world, mediation, etc.

[QUOTE][FONT="]This parable in scripture Should have been translated as: "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on The Rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on The Rock."[/FONT]
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I'm a little confused here.
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Yahwah being That Rock. Yahwah is called The Rock many times in scriptures. [/FONT]
Click to expand...

Agreed.

[FONT="]Did Yahshua want the Congregation to be built upon God The Rock, or Simon whom he called Peter?[/FONT]
Click to expand...

Why either/or? Why not both/and? Jesus is the cornerstone of the foundation. AND Jesus told Simon that he would be the rock that He would build His church on here on earth.

BTW, many Protestant's today agree that Jesus is referring to Peter in Matthew 16.

Here is just one example from a Presbyterian named J. Knox Chamblin:

"By the words ‘this rock’ Jesus means not himself, nor his teaching, nor God the Father, nor Peter’s confession, but Peter himself. The phrase is immediately preceded by a direct and emphatic reference to Peter. As Jesus identifies himself as the builder, the rock on which he builds is most naturally understood as someone (or something) other than Jesus himself" ["Matthew" in Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, 742].

Peace.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
CherubRam said:
The Catholics have a bad habit of taking liberties with the scriptures.
Click to expand...

Lots of Christians have that bad habit, I would say.

I don't think that is an exclusively "Catholic" phenomenon.

Do all Catholics do that? No. Some do.

Do all Christians do that? No. Some do.

Peace.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
Nameless.In.Grace said:
Fair statement.
Click to expand...

No. Unfair statement. That is an awfully broad brush, don'tcha think?

Lots of Christians have that bad habit, I would say.(of taking liberties with the Scriptures.)

I don't think that is an exclusively "Catholic" phenomenon.

Do all Catholics do that? No. Some do.

Do all Christians do that? No. Some do.

Peace.

I thought Paul was the origin of the Roman church anyways.
Click to expand...

No. I don't think so.

I never got the whole Peter hangup.
Click to expand...

It's not really a "hangup". Jesus changed Simon's name and gave him a special role in His Church.

We just recognize and acknowledge that.

Peace.
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

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csuguy said:
In 1 Peter 2, Peter makes clear that THE living stone, proper, is Christ. He also notes that we are like living stones ourselves, and that we, together, are being built into a spiritual house and priesthood. He makes not special mention of himself, but clearly defers to Christ and considers himself part of the latter group along with us - LIKE living stones, but not THE living stone.
Click to expand...

Hey csuguy,

Agreed. But that doesn't negate Jesus' words in John 1 and Matthew 16.

Peace.
 
Nameless.In.Grace

Nameless.In.Grace

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Bard_the_Bowman said:
No. Unfair statement. That is an awfully broad brush, don'tcha think?

Lots of Christians have that bad habit, I would say.(of taking liberties with the Scriptures.)

I don't think that is an exclusively "Catholic" phenomenon.

Do all Catholics do that? No. Some do.

Do all Christians do that? No. Some do.

Peace.



No. I don't think so.



It's not really a "hangup". Jesus changed Simon's name and gave him a special role in His Church.

We just recognize and acknowledge that.

Peace.
Click to expand...

No beef my Catholic brother in Jesus.

I count you loved by Jesus, and I hope you honor my clinging to the grace of Jesus too.

I understand your stance well.

In that, I hope to make peace.


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Crucible

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This is where non-Catholics hurt themselves, to be perfectly blunt.

Peter being blessed as the rock has always been seen, universally, as a fact. It wasn't simply about interpretation, but their own direct history. You can't change that with futile attempts at semantics.

Anyway, it did not stop the Eastern Orthodox churches from still rejecting the claim of infallibility by the Roman priests, because there was no reason to- Peter being the rock does not imply that the Roman church is the 'one true church'.

But now that all this time has gone by- which is typical of many other things- people want to go back and try to revise the past so that it serves them better.
For example, divinizing the American Indians to make it seem like Europeans were just evil people, or making women appear as if they were treated like dirt before suffrage.

Watch out for that :rolleyes:
 
B

Bard_the_Bowman

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Nameless.In.Grace said:
No beef my Catholic brother in Jesus.
Click to expand...

Hey Nameless,

Agreed. No beef and God bless. I just wanted a clarification made with what CherubRam had said.

I count you loved by Jesus, and I hope you honor my clinging to the grace of Jesus too.
Click to expand...

Absolutely!!

I understand your stance well.

In that, I hope to make peace.
Click to expand...

Of course. Me too. I hope my first response to you wasn't seen as too harsh. I apologize if it was. I just wanted to clarify.

I never thought we didn't have peace.

God bless.
 
csuguy

csuguy

Well-known member
Bard_the_Bowman said:
Hey csuguy,

Agreed. But that doesn't negate Jesus' words in John 1 and Matthew 16.

Peace.
Click to expand...

I don't reject the idea that Peter is a rock/living stone of the church, just as we all are. We all play this role; it is not unique to Peter. But, as Peter confirms in his epistle, Christ is THE rock, the corner stone upon which everything else is built.
 
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Bard_the_Bowman

New member
csuguy said:
I don't reject the idea that Peter is a rock/living stone of the church, just as we all are.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

We all play this role; it is not unique to Peter.
Click to expand...

Yes. We all play the role of living stones of the Church. That is not unique to Peter.

But I also think Peter is given a special role by Jesus Himself. After all, Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter and Jesus didn't change anyone else's name to that. Name changes in the Bible are significant. They mean something. Like Abram to Abraham, Sarai to Sarah, etc. Jesus gave Peter a special name and a special role in His church.

That is unique to Peter and not anyone else.

But, as Peter confirms in his epistle, Christ is THE rock, the corner stone upon which everything else is built.
Click to expand...

Agreed. And that doesn't negate the name change and special role that Christ gave to Peter.

Peace.
 
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Bard_the_Bowman said:
I think John 1:42 shows us that:

"And he brought him to Jesus. Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, “You are Simon the son of Jonah. You shall be called Cephas” (which is translated, A Stone). (NKJV)

See? Jesus says, "You are Simon." Because that was his name.

But then He says, "You shall be called Cephas" Indicating that he will be called Cephas, (Peter, Rock).
Click to expand...

He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John, you shall be called Cephas” (which is translated Peter). (John 1:42 NASB)​

The name "Cephas" is translated Peter. Is Peter a Greek word, an Aramaic word, or a Hebrew word?
 
Nameless.In.Grace

Nameless.In.Grace

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Bard_the_Bowman said:
Hey Nameless,

Agreed. No beef and God bless. I just wanted a clarification made with what CherubRam had said.



Absolutely!!



Of course. Me too. I hope my first response to you wasn't seen as too harsh. I apologize if it was. I just wanted to clarify.

I never thought we didn't have peace.

God bless.
Click to expand...

Respect and mutual


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B

Bard_the_Bowman

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jamie said:
He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon the son of John, you shall be called Cephas” (which is translated Peter). (John 1:42 NASB)​

The name "Cephas" is translated Peter. Is Peter a Greek word, an Aramaic word, or a Hebrew word?
Click to expand...

Hey jamie,

Great question! I had to do a little digging but here is what I found:

Cephas is Aramaic.

Petros is Greek.

In England, the name sortof became 'Piers' and then they started spelling it as 'Peter' in the 15th century.

True? I don't know. It seems 'Peter' might be the English spelling of the word. Here's a link to the site I looked at.

http://www.behindthename.com/name/peter

I don't know. Could be?

Peace.
 
csuguy

csuguy

Well-known member
Bard_the_Bowman said:
Yes. We all play the role of living stones of the Church. That is not unique to Peter.

But I also think Peter is given a special role by Jesus Himself. After all, Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter and Jesus didn't change anyone else's name to that. Name changes in the Bible are significant. They mean something. Like Abram to Abraham, Sarai to Sarah, etc. Jesus gave Peter a special name and a special role in His church.

That is unique to Peter and not anyone else.
Click to expand...

A name change is not unique to Peter. Yes - Peter was the only one to be named "Peter" specifically - but that doesn't mean anything in of itself. Saul was the only one to be named "Paul." Sarai was the only one record to be renamed "Sarah," etc. You can't draw from that that he was therefore establishing a papacy for the church.

Agreed. And that doesn't negate the name change and special role that Christ gave to Peter.

Peace.
Click to expand...
No special role there. He is a rock of the church just as we all are.
 
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