Choice??

quip

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In thinking about the issue, some radical departures from common sense seem to circle around the debate today. Not the least of which (in my mind) are the following :

1. If you are for abortion, you are called "Pro-choice". This is almost euphemistic since it attempts to avoid the ugly truth and paint it with a seemingly positive brush. But if you stop to think about it for even a small amount of time, since when does that make anything better? In an age that is all about not infringing on "my" rights, what insanity omits this situation from that thinking? In other words, where does "choice" make it okay to commit murder (more on that contentious word in a moment)? In the founding documents of the nation?

Abortion is the identical choice that you or I exercise in the decision to give (or not) blood, organ donate...or to the specific critical needs of kidney or bone-marrow recipiency. The point being, you've no necessary legal nor moral obligation to give of yourself...especially at the cost of one's own life, liberty and pursuit of personal happiness.

Obviously, choosing not to play physical host to another (at the cost of their demise) is not legally considered murder. Morally considered "murder"? That is a personal matter...one (of many) introspective valuations integral to the concept of (pro-) choice.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Abortion is the identical choice that you or I exercise in the decision to give (or not) blood, organ donate...or to the specific critical needs of kidney or bone-marrow recipiency. The point being, you've no necessary legal nor moral obligation to give of yourself...especially at the cost of one's own life, liberty and pursuit of personal happiness.

Actively choosing to kill someone is not morally equivalent to withholding one's own bodily fluids or body parts largely because there is no direct link between NOT donating and the death of a specific individual. Whereas with abortion, there is no intervening act separating any possible intent to kill with the act of killing (both are present in the abortion doctor). You aren't actually choosing to end someone's life by not donating blood. Legally speaking, that's a huge distinction. Morally speaking, there is no sacrifice in abortion - it's entirely self-centered. So NOT aborting is the self-sacrificing (and putting someone else's life ahead of your own) thing to do. Whereas donating (the positive action) is a similar (but by no means identical) moral act.

Obviously, choosing not to play physical host to another (at the cost of their demise) is not legally considered murder. Morally considered "murder"? That is a personal matter...one (of many) introspective valuations integral to the concept of (pro-) choice.

Choosing to kill a baby is murder. I suppose there may be an argument for abortions where it's an either/or situation (either the mother or the baby lives) but that is such a small fraction of cases that it might as well be non-existent. In cases where the parent can't afford to raise the child properly (for whatever reason), adoption is a viable option. Even in the case of rape (which is tragic), murder doesn't do anything to justify the rape (neither does the rape justify murder).

Again, though, the moral high-ground is self-sacrifice. Motherhood is just that. Elevating "my choice" above self-sacrifice is the issue in nearly all cases of abortion.
 

PureX

Well-known member
I don't see choice as the problem (itself) - rather the idolization of it, or rather the enshrinement of it as the pinnacle of rights. Our choices are supposed to be directed (not just guided, but informed and energized) by what is right before what is good for me or what I want. Today, the ultimate public sin is violating someone else's will - though even that isn't evenly applied (though that is another topic).
How is a "directed choice" even a choice? The truth is you don't like the fact that other people choose how they will live, instead of you. Yes, yes, I know you think you want God to do the "directing", but it's YOUR God your thinking of, and YOUR concept of what God would direct us to do. This is really all about you. YOU wanting to "direct" everyone else's choices.
Bottom line, what is right trumps what I want (per God).
YOU are deciding what you believe is "right". And by labeling it "God", you think you then have the right to foist your "righteousness" on everyone else. But nobody's buying it.
So I don't have any problem that we are to choose life. But from scripture, I see that man's tendency is downward. Now, culturally, we have flouted God's law at our own peril - and called it "choice".
We are each choosing what we think "God's law" is. Including you. And lots of people have chosen something different from you. And this is just as God has deemed it via the nature of our creation. That's what you can't seem to accept.
God's will on this matter is simple …
Other people don't care what you think God's will is. They have determined God's will for themselves. Or they have determined there is no God. Or whatever. And this is exactly as it has been deemed, by God.
But extending the idea of choice to other matters of license, look at adultery, divorce (which God only "grudgingly" allowed for the hardness of men's hearts), "alternative lifestyles" etc... These all are examples of choosing "me" over public morality and - more to the point - God (returning to Washington's point about the necessity of God and the bible in governing a people).
This is your reasoning, and your argument. It does not apply to others. They have to do their own reasoning, and make their own arguments, and then make their own choices, and then we all live with the consequences. This is how God made mankind, and the world. And I can only assume this is how God intended it to be.
As to the assertion that society makes laws - when any society makes laws that violates God's laws (indeed, natural law), the inevitable result is predictable (the road we are heading down). God's laws are not without reason.
This is just YOU talking. Not God. And you are just one human among billions. You don't get to decide what God thinks, and what God wants, or what God demands for all the other humans on the planet. In fact, you don't get to decide that for even a single one of them.
Law is, by nature, absolute and fixed.
No it's not. Different people all over the world make up different sets of laws, depending on their particular society's needs and desires. It's always been that way.
What you see as a governmental, political issue I see as a spiritual issue.
Yes, you are clearly biased by your religion; to the point that you cannot reasonably discern anything accurately, anymore.
You aren't going to change hearts and minds by changing the law (though you will drive the darkness underground where it should be to keep things in perspective). I'm simply showing how the secular mind today appears to be trending
You don't have any idea what secular people are thinking. Nor do you care enough about it to even ask them. You're too busy passing your self-righteous and false "divine judgment" on them for not believing what you believe, about God and your own imagined righteousness.
It's not about me enforcing my will at all but showing the resistance to God's clearly declared will in His law.
You don't know what God is, or what God is thinking. You only imagine and pretend that you do so you can feel justified in pushing your own beliefs on everyone else. The rest of us can see this even though you cannot. And that's why you can't change anyone's hearts or mind with your rude, offensive pretenses.
If someone says abortion is wrong and is the same as murder and shouldn't be an option because it is murder, how is that an offense to God?
It's an offense to the right of every human being to determine this issue for themselves. A right that has been given to them by God in the form of personal autonomy.
Of course I don't like or agree with people murdering babies. What is worse is when government and society gets together and sanctions and tries to justify it. The motive for doing so is even more evil than the act of murder itself. It's about the heart. Remember who said this ?
This is the cost of freedom of choice. A freedom that God has given to every human being, and that God has denied you the ability to override. If you want to play God, here, and control everyone else's thinking on this, your battle is going to be with God, first, and with any fellow human who doesn't want you playing God for them, and deciding for them what God wants them to do.
God is indeed God...and if you think it is wrong to try and go against "freedom" in the name of protecting life so that the ultimate gift of choice can be preserved, you are simply proving exactly what I am saying. The God I am fighting if I do so is not the God of the bible. It is the modern God of self-service. I would much rather be against all of the American people and for God than the other way around.
I can't think of any reason why your idea of God should trump anyone else's.
 

quip

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Actively choosing to kill someone is not morally equivalent to withholding one's own bodily fluids or body parts largely because there is no direct link between NOT donating and the death of a specific individual. Whereas with abortion, there is no intervening act separating any possible intent to kill with the act of killing (both are present in the abortion doctor).
This is mere emotive-based projection. There is no amenable intent to kill... the imminent death of the fetus is simply a physiological condition that doesn't immediately present itself within the former scenarios...though, the end result - death - remains identical. One cannot be considered murder whilst the other not.

You aren't actually choosing to end someone's life by not donating blood. Legally speaking, that's a huge distinction. Morally speaking, there is no sacrifice in abortion - it's entirely self-centered. So NOT aborting is the self-sacrificing (and putting someone else's life ahead of your own) thing to do. Whereas donating (the positive action) is a similar (but by no means identical) moral act.



Choosing to kill a baby is murder. I suppose there may be an argument for abortions where it's an either/or situation (either the mother or the baby lives) but that is such a small fraction of cases that it might as well be non-existent. In cases where the parent can't afford to raise the child properly (for whatever reason), adoption is a viable option. Even in the case of rape (which is tragic), murder doesn't do anything to justify the rape (neither does the rape justify murder).

Choosing to kill a baby is murder; choosing to refuse playing bodily host to one... is not. You refuse to accept the fundamental differences between the two....upon whatever emotive grounds. Which is fine, you've every right to view and choose as such...though don't lecture/confine others to your limited personal scope of the situation.

Again, though, the moral high-ground is self-sacrifice. Motherhood is just that. Elevating "my choice" above self-sacrifice is the issue in nearly all cases of abortion.

Not the case when "her choice" is to give birth. :idea:
Seems you're blinded by your own self-serving, moral indignation. Typical pro-life tunnel vision....elevating your self-restricted choice in a pious effort to dictate and delimit another's.
 
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Ask Mr. Religion

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From the Bible’s perspective, abortion is seen as an unjustified interference in God’s sacred role in the womb.

When abortion occurs, it involves not only the termination of a pregnancy, but also the termination of the very work of God in the womb.

The important part of the abortion argument is to show that God attributes the same characteristics to the unborn in the womb as to a person out of the womb. In other words, Scripture must indicate a continuity of personal identity when describing the unborn. And it does.

Examples of where the Bible uses conception and birth interchangeably include Job 3:3, which states, “Let the day perish on which I was to be born, and the night which said, ‘A boy is conceived’ “. This poetic passage employs what is called synonymous parallelism, in which the second line of poetry restates the first one, essentially saying the same thing in different language. This type of parallelism suggests that the child who was “born” and the child who was “conceived” are considered the same person. In fact, the terms “born” and “conceived” are used interchangeably here, suggesting that a person is in view at both conception and birth.

What was present at birth was considered equivalent to what was present at conception. This is strengthened by the use of the term “boy” in the second half of the verse, which speaks of conception. The woman did not conceive a thing or a piece of tissue, but a “boy,” a person. The Hebrew term for “boy,” geber, is also used in other parts of the Old Testament to refer to a man (Ex. 10:11; Deut. 22:5; Judges 5:30). Thus, in the same sense that an adult man is a person, the individual conceived in Job 3:3 is a person.

Other passages that seem to use conception and birth interchangeably include Jeremiah 1:5, where God says, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” Here it seems clear that God had a relationship with and an intimate knowledge of Jeremiah in the same way he did when Jeremiah was an adult and engaged in his prophetic ministry. In the womb he was called to be a prophet, something that was commonly done with other prophets when they were adults. That is, there is more to this text than the simple parallel between conception and birth. It also describes God knowing the unborn in the same way he knows a child or an adult, thereby attributing something characteristic of adults to the unborn.

A similar text occurs in Isaiah 49:1, which states, “Before I was born the LORD called me [literally, “from the womb the LORD called me”]; from my birth he has made mention of my name.” Again the parallel suggests that conception and birth are used interchangeably, but the text adds to this the idea that the person in question was both called and named prior to birth, indicative of a personal interest that parallels the interest God takes in adults.

Perhaps the clearest indication that the unborn are objects of God’s knowledge may be found in Psalm 139:13-16, which clearly shows that God is intimately involved in forming the unborn child and cultivating an intimate knowledge of that child.

Psalm 139:13-16 describes the intimate involvement of God in the formation of the unborn. From a Christian worldview, this should be sufficient to discourage abortion, since it interrupts the sovereign work of God in the womb. However, the psalm further teaches a continuity of personal identity from the earliest points of pregnancy forward. Some raise the objection that Psalm 139 speaks only of the development of a person in the womb, not of the fact that what is in the womb is indeed a person. However, these texts suggest that in the womb from conception is a person with potential for development, not merely some being that will develop into a person at some point in the gestational process. These texts, particularly Psalm 139, strongly suggest a continuity of personal identity that runs from conception to adulthood.

Two other passages highlight this continuity of personal identity. Psalm 51:5 says, “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” Here David is confessing not only his sins of adultery with Bathsheba and premeditated murder of her husband, Uriah the Hittite (see 2 Sam. 11-12), but also his innate inclination to sin. This is a characteristic shared by all people, and David’s claim is that he possessed it from the point of conception. Thus the inherent inclination to sin is attributed both to adult persons and the unborn. Using synonymous parallelism similar to that in Job 3:3, David appears to treat birth and conception as practically interchangeable terms. Finally, the Greek term for “baby,” bréphos, is applied to a child still in the womb in Luke 1:41-44 as well as to the newborn baby Jesus in Luke 2:16.

AMR
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
How is a "directed choice" even a choice? The truth is you don't like the fact that other people choose how they will live, instead of you. Yes, yes, I know you think you want God to do the "directing", but it's YOUR God your thinking of, and YOUR concept of what God would direct us to do. This is really all about you. YOU wanting to "direct" everyone else's choices.

I literally have 2 minutes right now, but one verse came immediately to mind:

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Proverbs 3:5-6

You may not see it, but the answer you gave continues to prove my point.

YOU are deciding what you believe is "right". And by labeling it "God", you think you then have the right to foist your "righteousness" on everyone else. But nobody's buying it.
We are each choosing what we think "God's law" is. Including you. And lots of people have chosen something different from you. And this is just as God has deemed it via the nature of our creation. That's what you can't seem to accept.
Other people don't care what you think God's will is. They have determined God's will for themselves. Or they have determined there is no God. Or whatever. And this is exactly as it has been deemed, by God.
This is your reasoning, and your argument. It does not apply to others. They have to do their own reasoning, and make their own arguments, and then make their own choices, and then we all live with the consequences. This is how God made mankind, and the world. And I can only assume this is how God intended it to be.
This is just YOU talking. Not God. And you are just one human among billions. You don't get to decide what God thinks, and what God wants, or what God demands for all the other humans on the planet. In fact, you don't get to decide that for even a single one of them.
No it's not. Different people all over the world make up different sets of laws, depending on their particular society's needs and desires. It's always been that way.
Yes, you are clearly biased by your religion; to the point that you cannot reasonably discern anything accurately, anymore.
You don't have any idea what secular people are thinking. Nor do you care enough about it to even ask them. You're too busy passing your self-righteous and false "divine judgment" on them for not believing what you believe, about God and your own imagined righteousness.
You don't know what God is, or what God is thinking. You only imagine and pretend that you do so you can feel justified in pushing your own beliefs on everyone else. The rest of us can see this even though you cannot. And that's why you can't change anyone's hearts or mind with your rude, offensive pretenses.
It's an offense to the right of every human being to determine this issue for themselves. A right that has been given to them by God in the form of personal autonomy.
This is the cost of freedom of choice. A freedom that God has given to every human being, and that God has denied you the ability to override. If you want to play God, here, and control everyone else's thinking on this, your battle is going to be with God, first, and with any fellow human who doesn't want you playing God for them, and deciding for them what God wants them to do.
I can't think of any reason why your idea of God should trump anyone else's.
 

Rusha

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That's because they are not supporters of abortion.

Of course they are. Supporting the right to abort is supporting abortion.


They are supporters of a woman's right to make her own choices regarding abortion, under certain circumstances.

Why *under certain circumstances*? Why not no matter what the circumstance? Like many pro-aborts, your choice of words indicates that only some abortions are okay. :think:

But I'll leave you all to your insult thread.

Well thank goodness your moral superiority put us all in our places. :)

Where you can all pat yourselves on the back for your superior righteousness.

There is a long line in the back-patting department. When you are done with your smug superiority complex, perhaps the line can move forward.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
rusha said:
Supporting the right to abort is supporting abortion.

No, it isn't.

well, let's look at it

how about:

Supporting the right to molest children is supporting child molestation?

Supporting the right to rape is supporting rapists?

Supporting the right to murder is supporting murderers?

Supporting the right for Purex to be a retard is supporting Purex's retardedness?
 
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