• This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective. Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed. 1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team 2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.

Chance or Design (Evolution or Creation)

The Barbarian

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So...we have been working at the differences between evolutionism and creationism.

Evolutionism is the sum of misconceptions creationists have about evoluiton. Creationism is the sum of misconceptions creationists have about creation.

ev·o·lu·tion-ism
/ˌevəˈlo͞oSH(ə)n/izm

noun
noun: evolutionism;
1. 1.
the stories creationists tell about evolutionary theory, to avoid discussing the real theory.
"evolutionism is calling God a liar"
2. 2.
the numerous misconceptions creationists have about evolution
"evolutionism is about the origin of life"
synonyms: straw man, diversion, misconception


Your false belief system of creationism, contradicts God's Word and science.

God's works are perfect.

That is another belief that creationism has tried to add to God's word. God merely says it's "very good", not perfect.

and the genomes of Adam and Eve would have been perfect until sin corrupted that perfect creation.

That's another non-scriptural belief man has tried to fit into scripture.

We are not the result of millions of years of pain, suffering extinctions and death.

We aren't our bodies, which evolved over time. We are immortal beings, directly created by God, each of us. We just happen to be in these evolved bodies.

The Bible calls death the final enemy...

The same spiritual death God mentioned to Adam when he told him he would die the day he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam ate anyway, and died that day. Spiritually, not physically.

It is not a creative process that God use to create with.

God says the earth and air and waters produced life. So yes, he uses creation to form other creations. And as even Answers in Genesis admits, that's how new species are produced. No point in denying observed facts.
 

JudgeRightly

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We understand you value your revision of God's word

:rotfl:

Revision? The only revisionist here is you, Barb.

f6669e7cadca9d877c103f3fee264fea.jpg


"six days"

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"from the beginning of creation He made them male and female"

more than the original.

Are you claiming to have access to the original manuscripts, which no longer exist?

:kookoo:

But most Christians like it the way it is.

There you go, appealing to popularity again.

The BIBLE says "six days" and "from the beginning of creation."

Barbarian says "millions of years" and "millions of years after God started creating."

Who's right, Barbarian or the Bible? It cannot be both.
 

The Barbarian

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I understand that you believe your new revision of Genesis. But that's never been Christian orthodoxy; it's no older than the 20th century.

Not that you'll go to hell for it; God doesn't care if you approve of His creation or not. That's not how He'll judge you. Unless you make an idol of your new ideas, and insist all Christians must believe them to be saved, you're no less a Christian than any other.
 

Guyver

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Is "evolution" (which you say you "understand") a province of "biological science" (which you say "is not my field of expertise")? If so, then what, exactly, do you mean when you say "I understand it"?

I understand why Christians wish the Earth to have been made in six days. That’s what I meant.

PS. And that I understand why Christians don’t like evolution.
 
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Stripe

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We understand that you value your religion more than God's word, but it is the way it is — it says what it says.

And it says "six days."

It doesn't matter how much you stamp your feet and become enraged; it says "six days."

In biology, though, it means "change in allele frequency in a population over time."

That's nice. The challenge isn't against "change." When you're ready to respond to the challenge, you'll be able to join a sensible conversation. Until that time, you're just a relic of a dying religion.

Evolution is natural selection and common descent. Evolutionism — your religion — is the collection of misconceptions you have about science.

That's what the word means.

Only if you're determined to protect your religion against opposition. In science, we define our terms carefully, rigourously separate fact from theory and look to falsify our ideas.

Darwinists never do any of those.

Dictionary.com

This is a real problem: People who want multiple dictionary definitions to be a scientific standard.

Nope. Evolution is just a theory.

Until you admit this, you remain nothing but a religious fanatic.
 

Guyver

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Define "a long, long time ago."

The current model is somewhere around 14 billion years. But that was on data before the “discovery” of dark matter. Apparently, dark matter...if it exists....has some effect upon the expansion rate of the universe. So, more study is needed. Whatever the actual number is, it’s more than six thousand years that’s for sure.
 

6days

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How many species do you estimate have gone extinct due to deleterious mutations?
You are still avoiding the question and unable to defend the video you posted. Extinctions due to mutations...likely tens of thousands of species.
So.... Are you able to defend the video... Why are geneticists concerned about genetic load, but your video says its not a problem?

User Name said:
If "genetic entropy" is really a thing, how do you explain this
The E. coli long-term evolution experiment (LTEE) is an ongoing study in experimental evolution led by Richard Lenski that has been tracking genetic changes.....
We could discuss what Lenski's experiment proves... but it has nothing to do with the video you posted. In all populations with a low birth rate and high mutation rate, genetic load increases. Bacteria do not have a low reproductive rate... and bacteria have unique (Designed?) methods of exchanging genetic info.

So again.... if you watched your video, how is 3 deleterious mutations added to our genome every generation not a problem? (Next we can discuss the bigger problem... the 'near neutral' mutations)
 

JudgeRightly

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The current model is somewhere around 14 billion years.

Sorry, but 14 billion is way too high a number.

https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/scienc...younger-we-thought-scientists-are-ncna1005541

But that was on data before the “discovery” of dark matter. Apparently, dark matter...if it exists....has some effect upon the expansion rate of the universe. So, more study is needed. Whatever the actual number is, it’s more than six thousand years that’s for sure.

Stripe says 6000. I say around 7000, but no more than 10,000.

Well, you quoted me...so...you know who. Why not just google oldest human skeletons and get some information for yourself? That would take like 15 seconds.
I wasn't asking about a specific person or group.

My question is about which side claims those skeletons are older than 6-7,000 years old.

The answer is that it's the side that says "the universe is billions of years old."

Which raises the question of whether the evidence is leading to the forming of their beliefs, or if their beliefs are causing them to interpret the evidence because of their dedication to their beliefs (ie, confirmation bias).

We have dinosaur fossils that are no more than 100,000 years old, which brings into question their ability to accurately date remains of long-dead creatures.
 

6days

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I understand that you believe your new revision of Genesis. But that's never been Christian orthodoxy; it's no older than the 20th century
Your dishonesty on that (And many other things has been pointed out many times.
The early church fathers were virtually all young earth creationists. Yet the argument is often used by those who want to add time into Scripture, that the church fathers thought Genesis was an allegorical story. The two early church fathers most often used as example is Origen and Augustine.
Origen stands out from the other church fathers in that he had very strange ‘theology’… He did not believe there was ever a first Adam…He believed in the pre-existence of souls and that eventually everyone, including the Devil, would be saved. So…. Using Origen as a source isn’t convincing.
Here are a few of the other early church fathers. They all believe in a young earth, although some thought creation might have been instantaneous. Some, like Augustine believed in instant creation because he used a Latin Bible allowing that interpretation. Had Augustine knew Hebrew, he almost certainly would have understood the Hebrew context did not allow for anything other that God creating in 6 days. Instantaneous creation doesn’t present a huge theological problem, because it still has no death in the world before Adam sinned. Notice, Augustine is a young earth creationist also. (Listed by year of death of each)
100AD "...but those who were sent to Alexandria as interpreters, gave him only the books of the law, while there were a vast number of other matters in our sacred books. They, indeed, contain in them the history of five thousand years;..."Josephus Antiquities of the Jews Book 1 preface par 3
200AD "All the years from the creation of the world amount to a total of 5698 years, and the odd months and days." Theophilus to Autolycus book 3 ch 28
236AD "Since, then, in six days God made all things, it follows that 6,000 years must be fulfilled" Hipplytus Extant Works and Fragments Exegetical Interpetation of the visions of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar
254AD "After these statements, Celsus, from a secret desire to cast discredit upon the Mosaic account of the creation, which teaches that the world is not yet ten thousand years old, but very much under that, while concealing his wish, intimates his agreement with those who hold that the world is uncreated." Origen Against Celsus book 1
300AD "For when a thousand years are reckoned as one day in the sight of God, and from the creation of the world to His rest is six days "Methodius Extracts From the Work on Things Created par 9
350AD"Therefore, since all the works of God were completed in six days, the world must continue in its present state through six ages, that is, six thousand years." Lactantius Divine Institutes book 7
373AD "Although both the light and the clouds were created in the twinkling of an eye, still both the day and the night of the First Day continued for twelve hours each" (Commentary on Genesis 1, p. 287).Regarding the First Day of creation "No one should think that the Creation of Six Days is an allegory; it is likewise impermissible to say that what seems, according to the account, to have been created in six days, was created in a single instant," St. Ephraim the Syrian Commentary on Genesis I
379AD "(Some) have attempted by false arguments and allegorical interpretations to bestow on the Scripture a dignity of their own imagining. But theirs is the attitude of one who considers himself wiser than the revelations of the Spirit and introduces his own ideas in pretence of an explanation. Therefore, let it be understood as it has been written. St. Basil the Great, Hexaemeron 9:1, pp. 135-36
395AD "Moses, I say, who was born some thousands of years after the Creation of the world" Gregory of Nyssa Answer to Eunomius’ Second Book
397AD "At this command the waters immediately poured forth their offspring. The rivers were in labor. The lakes produced their quota of life. The sea itself began to bear all manner of reptiles...We are unable to record the multiplicity of the names of all those species which by Divine command were brought to life in a moment of time. At the same instant substantial form and the principle of life were drought brought into existence...The whale, as well as the frog, came into existence at the same time by the same creative power (5:1, 2, pp. 160-62) He (Moses) did not look forward to a late and leisurely creation of the word out of a concourse of atoms (1:2, pp. 5, 7). And fittingly (Moses) added: He created, lest it be thought there was a delay in creation. Furthermore, men would see also how incomparable the Creator was Who completed such a work in the briefest moment of His creative act, so much so that the effect of His will anticipated the perception of time (Ibid., 1:5, p.8). The Church Fathers were unanimous in asserting God creates immediately and instantaneously, that it is His word which produces all things and is not the property of the waters or earth to bring forth life. St. Ambrose of Milan - Hexaemeron 7:2, p.107
407AD "But the world, though subsisting now five thousand years, and..." John Chrysostom Homily 10 on the Statues par 5
420AD "The world was created by God nearly six thousand years ago,"Sulpitius Severus Sacred History book 1 ch 2
430AD "Unbelievers are also deceived by false documents which ascribe to history many thousand years, although we can calculate from Sacred Scripture that not 6,000 years have passed since the creation of man." Augustine City of God Book 12 ch 10
We could examine what Jesus believed and taught. He referred to Adam and Eve existing from “the beginning of creation” Mark 10:6. Jesus also referred to Abel existing at a time near the “foundation of the world”…not billions of years later. Luke 11:50
 
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