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This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective. Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed. 1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team 2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.
Chance or Design (Evolution or Creation)
- Thread starter Hobie
- Start date
7djengo7
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Why don't you just tell us, now, exactly what (if anything) you would say constitutes whatever you would call "scientific evidence" for the proposition, P?
Oh, also, while you're at it, why don't you tell us exactly what (if anything) you would say distinguishes whatever you would call "scientific evidence" for the proposition, P, from whatever you would call "evidence" for the proposition, P?
And, again, why don't you tell us exactly what (if anything) you would say distinguishes whatever you would call "proof" for the proposition, P, from whatever you would call "evidence" for the proposition, P, and from whatever you would call "scientific evidence" for the proposition, P?
Have fun stonewalling against these questions.
ok doser
lifeguard at the cement pond
Guyver's a canuck!
That explains the weird aspie vibe I've been getting from him
6days
New member
The periodic table (and hundreds of other things.)Guyver said:
So you reject the teachings of Jesus that contradict your point?Guyver said:
So we agree that the cause of everything existed eternally. If you don't think that evidence points to an eternally existing intelligence, you are wrong.Guyver said:
I am surprised that you might argue for Bigfoot but not a flat earth.Guyver said:
Your argument is now more logical than it was before. You seem to suggest that if there is such a thing as a PhD scientist who says there is evidence to support beliefs in Bigfoot, that should be accepted, and we should ignore evidence claims from thousands of PhD scientist regarding our creator.Guyver said:
The periodic table and everything that exists shows its nature and can be observed or understood to a certain degree. The fact that a thing is specific and precise doesn’t necessarily imply that God did it, because it is possible that there is no God and everything we think is God is a product of our own minds, superstitions, religious beliefs, etc.
That’s why I’m distinguishing scientific fact from opinion or beliefs. Yet, I’ve already stated my opinion on that point so there’s no need to say it again. You disagree and that’s fine, but I just think your point is incorrect. Things that are made don’t necessarily require a Maker.
For example, take a puddle of water from a hole in the street. That puddle of water seems perfectly designed to hold the water that fills it, and is home to billions of microorganisms. Like us they fight for survival in this world.
But there home was not designed, it is a pure result of natural forces that we understand by science and the laws of physics.
If you would be specific about evidence, maybe I could agree. But it seems you assume that everything that exists is evidence of intelligence, and that may not be true. Not to be argumentative but to be factual. We don’t really know where we came from or why we’re here, or where we go when we die. We think we do. And we all think differently about it so no one really knows.
I agree that things which are have the appearance of existing eternally, and indicate the real possibility of supreme intelligence. Yes, I agree. But I don’t believe it can be scientifically proven because of the nature of science that requires observation to be highly confident about a thing....in general.
Einstein’s solution to the red shift of mars all happened in his mind. But his theories later held up under experimentation and observation.
6days
New member
You do an amazing job at arguing with strawmen that you create.Guyver said:
You really good at arguing against things nobody said.Guyver said:
What we could say though is that everything which begins to exist has a cause. So ultimately you believe 1)that nothing caused everything; or 2) there is an eternally existing cause. If (2) is correct then we can see if the evidence points to an intelligence.
Truthfully... I KNOW where I came from, and why I'm here. Guyver... you too can have that certainty of knowing where you came from, and where you are going.Guyver said:
You mean you know you came from mommies tummy and you're here to live and die?
Yeah....I know that as well. Thank you.
PS. Or, did I read into what you really mean again?
PSS. Perhaps you'd like to just answer the question, where did you come from and why are you here?
Yes, everything which has a beginning has an ending and does in fact have a cause...except for God right? If (2) is correct and you’d like to test if it were intelligently designed, then you would have to find a way to test for that. What do you propose?
Why don't you just tell us, now, exactly what (if anything) you would say constitutes whatever you would call "scientific evidence" for the proposition, P?
Have fun stonewalling against these questions.
Generally speaking, evidence that is scientific in nature is observable, repeatable, and can be measured. For example, continental drift can be observed, measured, and repeated over time. So, the evidence demonstrating continental drift is scientific in nature.
6days
New member
You and I are descendants of first Adam. "Then the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person."Guyver said:
Why you and I are here... "For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." Jeremiah 29:7
If you would be willing to use logic, and evidence you would agree that everything was has a beginning, has a cause. There are only two possibilities... 1) either you believe that nothing can cause everything... 2) or that the cause of everything is uncaused and has existed eternally. However you seem unwilling to use logic and science, afraid that may lead you to the Creator God of the Bible.Guyver said:
It is not difficult, Guyver.... We look to see if there is evidence that supports the hypothesis, or supports our beliefs. As somebody else in this thread suggested to you the evidence is everywhere.Guyver said:
For example... Evolutionists such as Dawkins have argued that shoddy design and non-functionality is evidence against the Creator. Logically, it then follows, that good design and functionality is evidence for our Creator.
Right Divider
Body part
Sorry that I feel the need to complain about this.... but that is a gross abuse of scripture.
That scripture is NOT about your or me or the guy that you replied to.... it is specifically to and about Israel.
Jer 29:1 KJV Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon;
Jer 29:4 KJV Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon;
That is the audience for that passage of scripture.
We are descendants of our ancestors, that is without question. Whether or not there was ever a man named Adam is pure speculation. Whether that first man was directly made by God from dust and had life breathed into his nostrils is also speculative, and it is religious belief, not scientific fact.
The second part of your post says that God made us and wishes to prosper us and not harm us, to give us hope, but it doesn’t say anything about our death. Your end and mine is the same as our ancestors, we are here to die. That much is certain but it doesn’t seem to fit into your theology.
1. I already admitted that everything with a beginning has a cause, yet you still present it as if I disagree. It’s almost like you can’t even hear what I say.
2. No one thinks nothing caused everything (that I know) and even saying it sounds silly.
3. You presume incorrectly. If I could be somehow led to God, I would gladly accept it. But you can’t lead me to God....you can lead me to your religion or the Bible, not the same thing as God.
4. You presume that the “God of the Bible” is our Maker....and that someone who doesn’t believe the Bible automatically doesn’t believe in God. That makes no sense, especially when I already told you to your face that I do believe in God.
It's a good thing that you added the "(that I know)" bit. Let me help you out by showing you that people do, in fact, believe that EVERYTHING, or in this case, SOMETHING, came from nothing.
Richard Dawkins, everyone:
https://youtu.be/umf3-nOdVCw
https://youtu.be/-AQvWrX-mKg
And Living Waters Ministries' list:
https://youtu.be/_vlvZ_oqV1w
I don’t wish to check the links. If what you assert is correct and all those links present evidence showing people who support evolution believe that everything came from nothing, then my response is simple. It’s silly and I don’t believe it. I am aware that Stephen Hawking said that because something like gravity exists, the universe could have made itself from nothing, but I don’t think what he meant by nothing is the same thing you think it.
Not that I wish to speak for him or anyone who thinks as he does on the matter, but if you think of empty space as nothing, it really isn’t. There are some things even in empty space in the form of energy, particles, and probably other things that we don’t even know about.
We agree. My reason for posting those videos was so that you could know for sure that people do in fact believe that everything came from nothing.
Right. Atheists (and those who accept the Big Bang as the origin of the universe) have to redefine "nothing" to mean something that it does not mean.
Nothing means just that.
No thing.
Nada.
Zilch.
Nandemonai.
Not space, not matter, not energy.
The first and second videos are of Richard Dawkins trying to redefine nothing to mean "something," and then getting laughed at.
The third is just a video list of several persons who believe the universe came from nothing.
Anyways, we agree.
The universe DID NOT come from nothing.
6days
New member
No... It is a belief based in evidence.Guyver said:
"To give us hope" the verse says. I would suggest reading Romans 5.Guyver said:
Ok... Great. I wasn't so sure you understood because what you actually said was everything that has a beginning has a cause except for God. There is no exception... Everything that has a beginning has a cause.Guyver said:
What I said was correct "There are only two possibilities... 1) either you believe that nothing can cause everything... 2) or that the cause of everything is uncaused and has existed eternally."Guyver said:
True... God can use weak vessels such as myself. He can also use science, but the person has to be willing to follow evidence that might lead to the creator God of the BibleGuyver said:
It is a belief based on evidence.Guyver said:
Right Divider
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That passage would have made more sense to use than the other one that you were taking well out of context.