Don't incite the trolls.
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Chance or Design (Evolution or Creation)
- Thread starter Hobie
- Start date
It seems they prefer to incite themselves. Maybe that’s because they don’t know what else to do?
I believe you're right. They seem to crave attention, don't they?
6days
New member
You are being silly... and illogical.
Once again..... Genetics helps confirm the Biblical model of a perfectly created genome that has been subjected to several thousand years of corruption. We don't have a time machine to go back 6,000 years to the perfect genome, but we certainly have evidence that is consistent with the Bible.
Likewise… you don't have a time machine to go back 6 or 7 million years to the supposed near common ancestor. And evidence from genetics certainly contradicts that belief. You have no idea how 100 million beneficial mutations can occur, and be constrained for 7 million years to create modern humans... but you believe anyways. It is a blind and illogical faith.
You can try defend your beliefs if you wish...
1. You claim the Bile has errors but you are unable / unwilling to defend that belief when you were challenged.
2. You claim genetic load is consistent with common ancestry / not the Bible... yet you seem totally lost in any attempt to defend your statements.
Actually, it was you who claimed the Bible had no errors. I implied the Bible had errors and asked you if it would effect your faith if you found them. You then changed your claim that the Bible has no errors that would impact doctrine. So, I’m guessing that you are not considering transcription errors to be errors. Otherwise, you should have said that the Bible doesn’t have any really big errors, but it does have some minor ones.
Anyway, since you insist....yes I can think of a bible error that would impact doctrine. Check 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1. There you can find an error that impacts doctrine.
6days
New member
Thanks Guyver
Atheist web sites post long lists of supposed contradictions such as the one you mention. But, rather than trying to find a contradiction, it is usually easy in scripture using context to see God's Word is consistent.
"Is ( 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1) a contradiction? Not at all. In 2 Samuel 24:1, God incited David to number Israel because God was angry with David. Yet, David sinned in doing it. Ultimately, God wanted to teach David not to trust in his number of fighting men, but to trust in Him. So, He moved to let David count the fighting men of Israel. He used Satan to do it which is why in 1 Chronicles 21:1, it says Satan moved David to count the men. Both are true. God most probably either sent Satan or allowed Satan to incite David. But, how can God send Satan to do a job and yet God is not responsible for the sin? Simple....." Carm apologetics
Your answer contradicts the Book of James which claims God cannot be tempted with evil, nor would he tempt anyone with evil. That’s why I said it was an error effecting doctrine. It is odd that you say the passages are not contradictory when they obviously are. I have seen this done by other “Inerrant” Bible Believers like yourself though.
The unusual phenomenon is that like you, they can’t see a contradiction when it’s staring them right in the face. Since God and Satan are supposedly not the same person, yes...those passages do contradict.
It is therefore a mistake and a contradiction. It’s a mistake if James is right and God would not cause someone to do evil. It is theologically problematic to believe that God would intentionally do evil by making the devil do evil, but apparently you have no problem with it.
PS. Are you aware of what the Bible claims “God” did as a result of David sinning? It claims he killed thousands of innocent people as a result of something you say he caused.
Now you may not see it, but I understand why those atheist sites you keep referring to have a problem with the Bible. It is passages like this that make it unbelievable to them, I’m sure.
6days
New member
May I suggest... If you are interested in Scripture and theology... don't use atheist web sites to help you interpret Scripture.
As mentioned before... genetics helps confirm the truth of Scripture, and exposes the false beliefs of Darwinists.
Ok....I don’t really know what to say about that, but I will say that the scriptures I posted or mentioned today do not require any assistance interpreting as anyone who can read should be able to understand them.
6days
New member
You are correct, although people such as yourself have difficulty when context is ignored. As I said before, "rather than trying to find a contradiction, it is usually easy in scripture using context to see God's Word is consistent. "
Rather, what James says is that God HIMSELF doesn't tempt anyone with evil.
Leaving out the "Himself" changes the meaning, and taking verse 13 out of context makes it lose all of it's meaning.
Here's what the verse actually says, in context:
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. - James 1:12-18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James1:12-18&version=NKJV
Faith is the element God has chosen to separate those who will saved and those who will be lost. The Bible tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God, and that everyone is given a measure of faith at birth. It's what we do with that measure of faith during our lifetime that determines our destiny. How we use that gift of faith is up to us. The Bible is written so that there are hooks to hang your hat on if you don't desire to express faith in God. There is also way more than enough evidence in the Bible to hang our hats on when we choose to exercise our faith in God. The choice of how we view the Bible is up to us as individuals.
Paul tells us that the word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword and that it divides right down to the bone and the marrow and exposes the thoughts and intentions of our hearts. These hooks in the word of God that allows both those who choose to not express faith in God and those who do are one way the word of God exposes the thoughts and intentions of our hearts. Both paradigms, doubt and faith, are exposed through the living power of the word of God.
Paul tells us that the word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword and that it divides right down to the bone and the marrow and exposes the thoughts and intentions of our hearts. These hooks in the word of God that allows both those who choose to not express faith in God and those who do are one way the word of God exposes the thoughts and intentions of our hearts. Both paradigms, doubt and faith, are exposed through the living power of the word of God.
I’m actually not having any difficulty whatsoever. It’s so clear, I don’t see how anyone could be confused. The Bible is discussing a single event - David numbers Israel. There are two causes attributed to the same event.
1. God is the cause.
2. Satan is the cause.
These two causes are so extremely different that it could not be more clear that these claims contradict. God is supposedly a being of light and love, and Satan is supposedly a being of death, destruction and murder.
I think you are the one having a hard time with this because it affronts your belief that the Bible has no errors, so you just claim that both causes are true. Even if your explanation is true, which I highly doubt based on the passage in James, the fact of the contradiction remains.
I hope you will see that no where does it say God would use Satan to cause a person to sin. Instead, it claims that a person chooses to sin themselves because of their own desires.
It seems so odd to speak with people who claim to believe in God, think that he is infinite in wisdom, understanding and capability, who by Himself created All Things, and then think some people made in His image could be lost.
What Master Craftsman allows for waste? How can God be love, and Love Never Fails, according to 1 Corinthians Chapter 13, and yet some people are lost (a euphemism for tortured forever in the Lake of Fire)?
Why wouldn’t you just believe that Love would go to any length, in this lifetime or the next, doing whatever it takes, no matter how long it takes, to make sure that NONE are lost and all are found?
Do you not believe that God is able to save everyone who needs saving?
Seems to me you are conflating human beings with inanimate objects. God gave human beings the ability to choose to love Him or hate Him. That is true love for that kind of love does not grasp so tightly it compels, but opens the hand to allow the person who is loved to choose their own destiny. You know, return love, or not to return love. God is a God who desires meaningful relationships with His creation thus His love is an open-handed love not a grasping kind of love. For a grasping kind of love is an obsession and a form of cruelty. It hurts relationships rather than enhancing them.
I love God for that reason. It means He respects both me and my choices even though I am the ant in the proverbial ant and elephant analogy. I willingly place my trust in someone like that. I withhold my trust from anyone who desires to control my choices.
Even my dog is like that. He dislikes and distrusts anyone who wants to control him without giving him a choice in the matter. The more I encourage his trust in me by treating him fairly and justly the more he responds with an obedience born out of love for me. He will not obey anyone he doesn't know and trust. He just sits there and looks at them and flat out ignores what they tell him to do.
The other thing I see in your ideas is a major misunderstanding of sin as you underestimate it's power and the illusions it creates in the minds of people. And, when people choose to ignore the teachings of the Bible they are left with no way to detect those illusions.
There is an old saying that fits this topic. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. Would you consider God to be a God of love if He forced you to believe Him against your own will?
6days
New member
[MENTION=20423]ffreeloader[/MENTION], [MENTION=16942]JudgeRightly[/MENTION] and myself have pointed out you ignore context in scripture in your attempts to find a contradiction in God's Word.Guyver said:
God is Holy... Righteous...Love. And yet Isaiah 45:7 says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil" is this a conflict?... Absolutely not! The entirety of scripture helps provide context and understanding.
Guyver... You have demonstrated you are the typical person who claims the Bible has errors. When pressed to provide an example, the best they can do is attempt to argue theology while ignoring context.
7djengo7
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Thanks for the advice, but, really now, The Barbarian, how could I incite you, even if I wanted to? You've got me on "Ignore", remember?