Don't know if he will join the conversation.
He can most definately answer your questions.
Short and to the point.
Have you struggled enough yet?
You are so close to the answer.
Theology Club: can ya help a brother out
- Thread starter LoneStar
- Start date
He can most definately answer your questions.
Short and to the point.
Have you struggled enough yet?
You are so close to the answer.
Peter was saved in Matthew 16 by confessing that Jesus was the Messiah and believing on Him.
The Lord says in Jn 17 that all that the Father had given Him, He had lost none but the son of perdition. He says more about it but I don't have time to go into the depth I'd like right now.
Peter was empowered at Pentecost to carry out the gospel of the Kingdom to Israel, offering the Kingdom to Israel Acts 3 with anticipation of the Lord's return.
Israel finally rejected the Kingdom with the stoning of Stephen, basically saying, "We will not have this man to rule over us."
Paul was saved for his unique ministry to the nations in Acts 9, logically taking place before Acts 10, where Peter is sent to the first gentiles out of sequence with the 'great commission' of the twelve.
Paul's confrontation of Peter in Galatians takes place before Acts 15 where Peter declares, in harmony with Paul's gospel of grace that:
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
LoneStar
New member
Suffering succotash! That last line flipped the light switch on. Faith is the answer to how anyone has ever been saved regardless of the details given. I was searching too narrowly for answers.
musterion
Well-known member
He was made right with God as one of the believing remnant of stumbled, blinded Israel. Neither he nor anyone had to THEN believe the newly revealed Gospel that was commissioned to Paul, even though Peter and the others no doubt knew of it from Paul and accepted its existence as it fell to Paul to go forth unto the Gentiles. This is why you see them confining their epistles to Jews and no longer the focus of Acts once Paul's ministry gets underway.
musterion
Well-known member
CORRECT. But there again comes the question: why? As we know, the 12 had already been sent forth with good news unto the entire world, starting with Israel. So why was Paul later sent?
Perhaps more to the point, why did the 12 never make it?
LoneStar
New member
I see what you are asking. Why not reveal the new gospel to the 12 that were already on a mission to the world rather than train a new guy to carry out the mission. I have no answer as to why God did it that way. What's your answer?
Time limit. They were told their mission would not be complete till Jesus returned. Jesus has not returned so we know they have not completed their mission. That's as far as I can go with an answer. Are there other reasons?
LoneStar
New member
Darn you lost me. Paul says if anyone believes another gospel besides his then they can't be saved. His wasn't for Jews or Gentiles but for everyone without any distinction. Are you indicating the 12s mission to the whole world was only for Jews of the world, or was their mission also to Jew and Gentile alike without distinction? I best stop here for i'm having doubts that I comprehend your post in the manner you intended. Man I'm sorry if I seem simple minded with this. I'm hoping it's as simple as just terminology or phrases most of yall are used to that I'm not. I'll catch on.
musterion
Well-known member
Better yet, forget Paul for a moment and back up just one more step: was there something wrong with the Gospel of the Kingdom which they were given to take to the world? It obviously did not get carried out per Christ's commission. What happened? Why was it not carried out back then?
Denominational churches NEVER ask that question -- they don't see clearly enough to even see the need TO ask it. What say you?
I'm not being obtuse or teasing; I believe in the Socratic question/answer method. It's what helps me understand new things. So I refer you to the blue part above so we can build to that.
Time limit isn't it. There was no time limit. They were told to go do something. They started to but never finished. Later, one guy replaced them with a different commission. The FIRST question to answer is, what happened to that FIRST commission? If I may refer to you Acts ch. 7, some of us believe that chapter is pivotal to all this and is key to answering your questions. Take another look at it. Keep thinking, keep asking. You're getting closer.
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musterion
Well-known member
Yes, because at THAT point, what Paul called "my gospel" was the sole "power of God unto salvation" for all, Jew and Gentile without distinction, as you said. Do we see Peter and the rest still going about preaching to Israel first after the salvation of Paul? Nope.
It's not quiet either one.
The 12 were going to go to Jews first, starting in Israel, and when Israel repented to Messiah and was renewed from her apostasy, THEN the nation of priests foretold as far back as Moses would carry word of Him to the whole world. That was the plan (again, going all the way back to Moses). But it depended on one thing happening...and it didn't.
You have nothing to apologize for. As long as you are not the guy who called himself Dodge pretending to play nice (long story), we're good.
musterion
Well-known member
I hope it doesn't irritate you but I like this method of discussion because, instead of posting a lot of information that may not absorb but might just bounce off of someone's skull, asking a connected chain of questions helps lead an honest questioner to come to their own conclusions without anything being misrepresented..."Why do you think _____ happened?" or "What do you find the Bible says about _______?" So since you're asking MADs about our general beliefs, I find it a handy way to participate in a discussion (some have said "leading questions!" but hey, they asked me about what I believe, and that's how I answer. But I also like that method when I myself am trying to learn something new.
It also tends to weed out trolls, who are legion on TOL. So far you're doing fine.
It also tends to weed out trolls, who are legion on TOL. So far you're doing fine.
heir
TOL Subscriber
I already attempted in short to answer you to aid you in casting down an imagination (an imagination in that, I'm not really sure where you heard that it was "what God wanted to be preached to both Jews and Gentiles and was the only gospel that could save him at that time" Yikes!) that it was difficult for you, "to imagine Peter wouldn't believe and preach the same as Paul once he knew it was what God wanted to be preached to both Jews and Gentiles and was the only gospel that could save him at that time" when I said, "...nowhere do we read Peter preaching the gospel of Christ as the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth or that he believed it for his or their (Israel's) salvation (1 Peter 1:5-10 KJV)".
I thought that in citing even just the 1 Peter passage you would see what Peter believed concerning his (and Israel's)salvation (specifically 1 Peter 1:5 KJV, 1 Peter 1:9 KJV). Please look it over again. It is contrary to the gospel of our salvation! In the entirety of 1 and 2 Peter he didn't once mention the gospel of Christ as the power of God. Peter did not speak of a present possession salvation (like Paul did as we "are saved" 1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV, Ephesians 2:5 KJV, Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV, Titus 3:5-7 KJV), but one that was future at the revelation of Jesus Christ (2 nd coming talk) in accordance with Acts 2:47 KJV, Acts 3:19-21 KJV, 1 John 1:9 KJV, Romans 11:25-26 KJV, Hebrews 8:8-12 KJV). Peter's message (like the rest of the Hebrew epistles) is consistent with the kingdom gospel, an endure to the end message, a future day of atonement and one of a royal priesthood, an holy nation (1 Peter 2:9 KJV) whereas we in the BoC "are saved" as shown above, have now received the atonement (Romans 5:11 KJV) and in the Body of Christ where there is no nationality (Galatians 3:27-28 KJV, Colossians 3:11 KJV).
I cited Galatians 2 previously so that you could see that when Peter, James and John saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto Paul, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; that they perceived the grace that was given unto Paul. It does not say that they trusted the Lord believing the gospel Paul preached as the power of God for their salvation. No way! Paul was the first of the we who first trusted (1 Timothy 1:13 KJV, Ephesians 1:12 KJV). There is no scriptural evidence that they trusted the Lord believing that gospel that Paul preached among the gentiles. There is too much evidence to the contrary. Allow the scripture to mean what it says, as it says it and to whom and don't try to read into it what it doesn't by letting your imagination carry you away and you'll be on solid ground.
heir
TOL Subscriber
You've been given the answer to that more than once.
heir
TOL Subscriber
I don't see any who trusted the Lord believing Paul's gospel for salvation that the Lord previously "added to the church daily, such as should be saved" (Acts 2:47 KJV) out of Peter's ministry. I'm not sure what all of the worrying is about the 12 and Israel's salvation anyway. It seems pretty clear to me that theirs is future when ours is now. And anyway, the Lord knows what He's doing and has this all sorted out.
There were however those who weren't in the Lord's "My church" (Matthew 16:18 KJV) from Pentecost, but of whom God foreknew would believe and be saved into the BoC. They are those to whom Paul was first sent and Paul went in synagogue after synagogue through the book of Acts to gather them in (Romans 11:1-6 KJV). They were Jews and Greeks.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
...
Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
Matthew 23:1-3 KJV
heir
TOL Subscriber
You seem to have the notion that Peter stopped believing what he believed and that which he was commanded and committed to preach. I don't see that in scripture. It's been a false premise to most of your questions on this thread and may be why some of your questions are not being fielded.
LoneStar's premise is that Peter did believe, and not that Peter stopped believing.
LoneStar said:
Peter believed his gospel which was for inclusion into the kingdom.
Later, Peter believed Paul's gospel which was for inclusion into the BOC.
It doesn't even have to be about Peter, but any Jew that first believed Peter's gospel when they heard it., and then believed Paul's gospel when they heard it.
A Jew is present at Pentecost, follows the disciples and believes them completely.
He is included in the kingdom, right?
Later he hears Paul preaching his gospel and believes it completely.
Will he be included in the BOC?
That's what he is looking for clarification on.
It's not an unanswerable question, if one understands the question correctly.
BTW, LoneStar is my eldest son.
I live in his household.
He has requested that I lay low, so to speak, to see if he arrives with the same conclusion that MADists do with the info they provide.
So I told him he should come here to this forum and ask, as there are many knowledgeable MADists here.
His confusion lies with the fact that he has seen MADists say that believing Paul's gospel automatically places you in the BOC.
So if Peter believed Paul's gospel ......... the natural assumption is that Peter was in the BOC (IF is is absolutely true that when one believes Paul's gospel, they are in the BOC).
heir
TOL Subscriber
It's still a false premise. Peter never believed the gospel of Christ for his salvation nor did he preach it. We can know this as there is no scriptural indication that he did. It's based on speculation not scriptural evidence. What the scripture does say is that when Peter (and James and John} saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto Paul as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter, Paul having communicated that gospel that he preached among the gentiles to them; that they (Peter, James and John) "perceived the grace that was given unto" Paul and gave Paul and Barnabus the right hand of fellowship.
(side note: it doesn't say in Galatians 2 that Paul preached it to Peter, James and John)
Right
Paul's gospel would have been contrary to the gopel of the circ which includes the keeping of the law. I don't see Jews at Pentecost who followed the apostles doctrine changing to follow Paul's. In fact, I see evidence to the contrary. Those who were added to the church at Pentecost were "zealous of the law" all the way in Acts 21:20 KJV!
Peter believed that what Paul spoke was scripture 2 Peter 3:16 KJV. It does not mean tht Peter believed what Paul preached for salvation. All the scriptural evidence I have seen points to the fact that Peter did not. I believe what is spoken by James, Cephas and John, but it doesn't mean that I am saved by believing what they wrote.
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It looks like you are either insinuating that no Jew that believed Peter's gospel as preached, could then hear Paul's gospel and believe it as preached;
or you are insinuating that it was possible for a Jew to believe Paul's gospel after believing Peter's gospel, but it just happened that no Jew did believe Paul's gospel after they first believed Peter's gospel.
Which begs the question: Why would any believing Jew need Paul's gospel at all?
or you are insinuating that it was possible for a Jew to believe Paul's gospel after believing Peter's gospel, but it just happened that no Jew did believe Paul's gospel after they first believed Peter's gospel.
Which begs the question: Why would any believing Jew need Paul's gospel at all?
musterion
Well-known member
Yep.