Can Man's Sinful Adamic Nature Be Rehabilitated?

[iouae]

The most nonsensical thing I've read this week.

Let me walk you through this slowly. Please stop me when I get to the nonsense. Give me the number where the nonsense starts e.g. "3".

1. God created Adam/man with free will.
2. God put Adam into the world with instructions (don't eat fruit)
3. Adam for a long time made the right choice.
4. Then one day he made the wrong choice.
5. He made the wrong choice BEFORE the (nonsensical/non-existent) "fall".
6. Proving his nature was the same before and after he sinned.
7. Thus his nature did not change, the only thing that changed was now he had sinned.
8. What the Bible calls the "old man" is free-will used, to sin.
9. Every one of us today faces exactly the same choice as Adam, to sin or not to sin.
10. The old man chooses to sin.
11. The new man chooses with divine help, not to sin.
12. If Adam had chosen not to sin, he too would have put on the new man, with divine help.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

That's what you think vanity means there?

No, this is the most foolish thing I've read this week.

Adam was created.

The Creature was subjected to vanity.

That means Adam.

Why did he follow Eve?

Because she was his in the here and now.

He did what he was subjected to do.

Follow his vanity. :shocked: :think:

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Let me walk you through this slowly. Please stop me when I get to the nonsense. Give me the number where the nonsense starts e.g. "3".

1. God created Adam/man with free will.
2. God put Adam into the world with instructions (don't eat fruit)
3. Adam for a long time made the right choice.
4. Then one day he made the wrong choice.
5. He made the wrong choice BEFORE the (nonsensical/non-existent) "fall".
6. Proving his nature was the same before and after he sinned.
7. Thus his nature did not change, the only thing that changed was now he had sinned.
8. What the Bible calls the "old man" is free-will used, to sin.
9. Every one of us today faces exactly the same choice as Adam, to sin or not to sin.
10. The old man chooses to sin.
11. The new man chooses with divine help, not to sin.
12. If Adam had chosen not to sin, he too would have put on the new man, with divine help.

He had a will, it just wasn't free.

It was subject to vanity.

 

[disturbo]

Give me the number where the nonsense starts e.g. "3".

6. Proving his nature was the same before and after he sinned.
7. Thus his nature did not change, the only thing that changed was now he had sinned.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Keep joking, blasphemer.

Romans 8:20 KJV


20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

 

[Robert Pate]

Let me walk you through this slowly. Please stop me when I get to the nonsense. Give me the number where the nonsense starts e.g. "3".

1. God created Adam/man with free will.
2. God put Adam into the world with instructions (don't eat fruit)
3. Adam for a long time made the right choice.
4. Then one day he made the wrong choice.
5. He made the wrong choice BEFORE the (nonsensical/non-existent) "fall".
6. Proving his nature was the same before and after he sinned.
7. Thus his nature did not change, the only thing that changed was now he had sinned.
8. What the Bible calls the "old man" is free-will used, to sin.
9. Every one of us today faces exactly the same choice as Adam, to sin or not to sin.
10. The old man chooses to sin.
11. The new man chooses with divine help, not to sin.
12. If Adam had chosen not to sin, he too would have put on the new man, with divine help.

This is not according to the bible.

 

[iouae]

6. Proving his nature was the same before and after he sinned.
7. Thus his nature did not change, the only thing that changed was now he had sinned.

Let us say you are told not to smoke pot.
And you decide to.
Has something in you fundamentally changed?
Or have you just broken the law and started a bad habit?

By pointing to "6" you are saying your NATURE has changed, which I disagree with.

And again I say "7" is correct in that your nature has not changed. The only thing which has changed is that now you have sinned/broken the law.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

This is not according to the bible.

Sure it is.

And when you all lose yer notion of free will you'll understand the beginning.

 

[iouae]

This is not according to the bible.

Pick a number please.

 

[aikido7]

Many believe that it can be. Some Catholics believe that by the grace of God working in a persons life and through the indwelling Holy Spirit, they can live a life of perfect obedience to God's Holy Law and be justified. This is why they are continually going to mass to be like Jesus.

If that were true, that we could become righteous by what we do, then Jesus lived and died in vain.

This is one reason why some people believe that Catholicism is anti-Christ. It does away with the substituionary and representative work that Jesus did in our name and on our behalf, that justifies us and reconciles us to God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Christians are called to live their lives before God as sinners. Saved sinners. This is why Paul refered to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. Paul struggled with sin just like we do, "For the good that I would do, I don't do it, but the evil which I would not do, that I do" Romans 7:19. It is the Holy Spirit working in the Christians life that convicts him of sin. If you don't see yourself as a needy sinner, you may not have the Holy Spirit.

We are always pressing towards the "high calling" that is in Jesus Christ, but we never arrive, we always fall short of the righteousness of Christ. This is why Paul said, "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

The Gospel is the good news that Jesus came into the world to do for us that which we cannot do for ourselves. By his sinless life, he offers to God the Father a life of perfect obedience to his Holy Law. It is this life that was lived for our justification, Romans 3:26. That was not enough, something had to be done about our sins, "For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:21.

When God accepted Jesus into heaven we were accepted in him. God now sees us as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

With an increasing, interconnected global culture we might just do it.

Of course our instincts in our DNA will always be there, but it is my hope we will be better able to control them. Jesus looked forward to having all of us being “the sons and daughters of God.” People are learning nonviolence, anti-tribalism, anti-fundamentalism, better ways of dealing with conflict and setting up groups that are focused on doing things in a better way.

The bitter irony, in my view, is the fact that atheists, unbelievers and members of Judaism or Islam are carrying out Jesus’s Kingdom of God work--yet they are unable or unwilling to be accountable for it.
Of course it would be against any atheist’s creed to admit they are doing God’s work on earth.

I used to know two atheist families and they raised their children with Christian values--even though they would never admit it.

 

[disturbo]

Let us say you are told not to smoke pot.
And you decide to.
Has something in you fundamentally changed?
Or have you just broken the law and started a bad habit?

By pointing to "6" you are saying your NATURE has changed, which I disagree with.

And again I say "7" is correct in that your nature has not changed. The only thing which has changed is that now you have sinned/broken the law.

You just don't get it. Adam was told that he and Eve could eat any fruit from the garden EXCEPT ONE. Before Adam took a bite, he had no problem with his or Eves nudity. But AFTER EVE and Adam did what they were told not to do, they immediately were ashamed of their nudity. Would you like me to explain this little miniscule phenomenon to you in Christian terms?

 

[iouae]

If your father makes a wrong choice e.g. to smoke pot.
Does that wrong choice, or proclivity to make wrong choices (such as to smoke pot), get passed down to your children?

Any geneticist would laugh at that notion.
The worst thing that could happen is that you could set a bad example for your kid.

But you CANNOT pass your bad decisions on to your kid.
Yet Christians swallow the notion that Adam somehow passed a proclivity to make bad choices down to us today?
That is just bad science, and bad theology.
Each of us make our own bad choices, not through some "fallen nature" passed down to us from Adam.
The only one we can blame when we say decide to smoke pot, is ourselves.

 

[iouae]

You just don't get it. Adam was told that he and Eve could eat any fruit from the garden EXCEPT ONE. Before Adam took a bite, he had no problem with his or Eves nudity. But AFTER EVE and Adam did what they were told not to do, they immediately were ashamed of their nudity. Would you like me to explain this little miniscule phenomenon to you in Christian terms?

Be my guest. My theory is that Satan told them they were nude and that this was something to be ashamed of.

 

[jamie]

It has to do with how God made the human mind. Adam and Eve were not created with God's Spirit.

Paul explains that the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. (Romans 8:7 NKJV)

Jeremiah commented, "The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9 NKJV)

We put to death the carnal mind by being buried with Jesus in baptism and raised to walk in a new life as a new creature.

Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. (Romans 6:6-7 NKJV)​

 

[disturbo]

I would have never thought that the following verses would need clarification to any Christian!

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

 

[disturbo]

iouae said,

Be my guest. My theory is that Satan told them they were nude and that this was something to be ashamed of.

When I'm naked nobody has to tell me I'm naked. Maybe a little homework on the verse would help. Otherwise, believe what you THINK is truth.

Need a little help on this one do you???

"And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?"

 

[iouae]

disturbo, what is your point regarding nakedness?

 

[iouae]

iouae said,



When I'm naked nobody has to tell me I'm naked. Maybe a little homework on the verse would help. Otherwise, believe what you THINK is truth.

Need a little help on this one do you???

"And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?"

Who told?
Satan told.
Is there a point hidden somewhere?

 

[disturbo]

disturbo, what is your point regarding nakedness?

It's the MOST mentioned thing BY GOD in the narrative. It explains MORE than just nakedness!

 

[disturbo]

Who told?
Satan told.
Is there a point hidden somewhere?

The 'hidden point' is in your inability to look at this objectively.

The way they saw themselves changed. When God asked them, "who told you that you were naked", doesn't mean that Satan told them they were naked.

God told them...

Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Their nakedness exposed their new SINFUL STATE!"

Satan told them...

...For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

and...

And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked;

So actually IT WAS GOD WHO TOLD THEM!

But that really doesn't matter. It was AFTER their sin that they were aware of their 'NAKED' sinful state.