You are acting stupid.
Can God lie?
- Thread starter Derf
- Start date
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
No.
I'm taking the position that they did not lie.
Had Pharoh pushed the matter of disobedience he would have had to get witnesses to tell him they were there for the birth of some of the males.
What we see him do is change tactics.
His goal was to stop the number of Hebrew males from multiplying.
So, he commanded his people to start killing the Hebrew's male babies.
Isn't it why Ysabel hid Moses for three months?
As far as God rewarding them, I contend that since they did not lie, he couldn't have rewarded them for lying, he rewarded them for not killing the babies.
Like Pharoh, I'm done with the midwives.
Last edited:
Derf
Well-known member
Ok, then on to Rahab.
Derf
Well-known member
Why is that stupid? What would stop God from (good) lying to His people if lying is sometimes good?
It's stupid because you are intentionally ignoring the text of scripture, ignoring every descent argument put against you and then responding to ancillary points in a manner that is literally as if you don't know right from wrong!
It's also as if you know nothing of Christian doctrine concerning things like how we are identified in Christ and how God cannot deny Himself. Do you suppose that we are advocating that God can lie to Himself?
This is not a discussion that is conducive to child like, one dimensional, thinking where we make arguments and say things without giving any thought to other issues and how they might play into what we're discussing. Nor is it a discussion where you to get make OUR arguments as though they were somehow in support of your position without me pointing it out. Ignore it all you like, it doesn't mean you haven't been proven wrong by your own arguments.
Derf
Well-known member
Or maybe you're getting frustrated that I don't agree with you.
If lies are sometimes good, then there should be no reason why God wouldn't sometimes lie to His people to bring about good.
Psalm 84:11 KJV — For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.
According to you, we're missing out on some good things because God isn't sometimes lying to us. You're saying I'm being stupid to reject that. But then you reject it, too.
What it tells me is that lies are bad, and therefore God doesn't lie to His people. We can discuss whether God lies to others, but if He does, it is only in some context that makes the lie seem good compared to some other worse thing, which is what I've been saying all along.
...and He won't "lead us" to lie.
Which makes you wrong.
They did, in fact lie.
Because your premise is false, the rest of your argument falls apart.
But even if that wasn't the case, your argument would still be bad, because Scripture does not state that God rewarded them for "not killing the babies."
It says that God rewarded them because they feared God (rather than Pharaoh).
And it says that IMMEDIATELY after they told Pharaoh their reason for not killing the babies.
Maybe you should reconsider your position, instead.
Here's why:
On the contrary. People disagreeing with me is one major reason I'm here!
If there's anything frustrating me at all, its the complete lack of substantive response. I could repeat the fact that you are using OUR arguments for the next ten years and you'd still have never responded to the point. You don't respond, because you have no response. What possible response could there be other than "Gee, Clete! I hadn't noticed myself being so obtuse! Thank you for correcting me!" and GOD HIMSELF is the only person in existence who could ever make you say anything of the sort. You'd rather die!
Granted!
It is literally a stupid hypothetical that couldn't ever happen but the logic follows.
Liar. I've never even hinted at any such thing and you know it.
Notice, that there's no need for be to bother making any sort of distinction. You're a liar - period.
You're stupid and stubbornly so.
Your doctrine is in direct contradiction to God's own words.
It is the context that makes it right. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Just a fancy lie, only its a lie you're telling yourself.
Clete
Derf
Well-known member
That's part of my point. Your arguments work equally well for my viewpoint...that makes those arguments of little use for finding out the truth.
I'm still looking forward to you actually correcting me in a way that makes sense. For all I know, you lie every time you speak, because it's ok to do so. So your viewpoint tells me I should not accept your viewpoint.
Why could it never happen?
It follows logically. If lies are sometimes good, and all good things come from God, yet He never lies to us, then there's some good thing He is depriving us of.
But that's ok, right? At least when I do it, since I'm probably sent by God to do it.
Please explain with scripture. I gave you scripture for my side of it.
The context where there is some greater evil that needs to be stopped, and the person who lies doesn't know how else to handle the situation? That's what I've been saying all along.
If that's true that I'm telling a lie...what's wrong with it? You've already said that sometimes a lie us good and sometimes bad. What makes what you suppose I'm doing bad vs. good? Maybe God sent me to lie to you because of the way you argue with logic, but don't apply the same logic to your own posts. He probably wants you to learn some eternal truth by telling you a lie about it.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Nope. It's being led...heeding that still small voice and the peace that follows.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Rahab was heeding and being moved God. Being moved by the Spirit if you will.
Joshua 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the Lord hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.
10 For we have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.
11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the Lord your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Are you a Calvinist?
Derf
Well-known member
Not so sure she wasn't led by fear, rather than the Spirit.
2 Timothy 1:7 KJV — For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
Once again, you might could get away with this with someone else, but I'm not nearly that stupid.
You DO NOT realize that you're doing it until I (we) point it out and then you ignore the point.
Now, if you'd like to make an actual argument that supports this new contention of yours that our argument works just as well for your side as ours then I invite you to make that argument but you won't do it because it isn't anywhere near true. The moment you tried to do it, you'd realize that you've now fully, complete and utterly lost this debate.
As it is, in answer to your claim that our arguments work just as well for your side as ours, I give you my trademark response....
Saying it doesn't make it so!
The fact is that if the context of a lie is what makes it good or bad, then lying isn't always evil and, therefore, we're right and you're wrong, by YOUR OWN STANDARD!
If I've said something you don't understand then point it out and I'll explain it further. If I've said something you think doesn't follow logically, then make the argument.
Stupidity or an intentional lie - perhaps both.
There isn't any way that you're this stupid. You must surely know that you are intentionally altering our position. Do I really have to state explcitly that just because lying isn't always evil that doesn't mean that it's always good? Which is it, Derf, are you stupid or dishonest?
You clearly meant to ask why couldn't it happen, which is a question I've already answered.
You are literally stupid if you think that logic follows, or else, once again, you are just intentionally lying. I can find no rational motive for the lie unless it is yourself that you're actually lying too.
First of all, the only biblical precedents of righteous lies are those where an unrighteous enemy is being deceived, either in the furtherance of a righteous cause or as prep for the punishment of the one being deceived. There is no context in which this could ever occur for those who are on God's team, who are members of God's own family, who have been crucified with and are forever identified in His Son who has already been punished for anything they have done or will ever do.
In other words, the logic doesn't follow because you ignore our premises and insert YOUR OWN premises into OUR position!
No, it isn't alright at all! It's a sin! You need to repent.
I and other here have quoted you several scriptures several times. You ignore them in favor of your doctrine.
GOD DOES NOT DO EVIL THAT GOOD MAY COME OF IT!!!!!!
How many times does that exact same point have to be made to you?
Why is it preferable to you to suppose that God does evil that good might result rather than simply excepting that telling a lie is sometimes a good thing to do?
Like I said, it is literally as if you do not know right from wrong.
But it isn't randomly so, nor is it merely a matter of personal preference which is what you're implying here.
If that were the case, God would first have told you the error I've made and shown you how to articulate it to me in a rational way, which you've not only haven't done but wouldn't be able to do if your life depended on it.
Even that idiotic hypothetical presupposes that God might send an idiot who doesn't form his doctrine based on the very words the came out of God's own mouth to tell a lie to one whom He not only died for but whom has been hidden in God and sealed by His Spirit since he was 8 years old!
There is no biblical precedent nor has anyone here suggested that "teaching some eternal truth" is a proper motive for lying nor even that such a thing is possible. That's your own mind trying any avenue it can conjure, any path it can run down, any crevice it can squirm through in order to escape the testimony of God's own word against your pet doctrine.
Clete
Last edited:
Not by profession.
Some of what I believe they do echo, but on other things we are very far apart.
"Excepting" or "accepting?
If God won't do evil that good may occur, then why can Rahab or the midwives do it?.
Because Rahab and the midwives were not under the God given Law of Moses.
What evil did they do so that good would come of it?
IOW, quit begging the question.
Or, lying isn't evil, and they didn't do anything wrong to begin with, which is a much simpler explanation.
Derf
Well-known member
Rahab isn't God. That may seem obvious, but it didn't show up in your response.
Derf
Well-known member
How do we know from the bible that something is sinful? There are few ways.
1. God tells us not to do it. It was sinful for Adam and Eve to eat of the Tree of Knowledge because God told them not to do so. Murder is condemned in several passages.
2. God destroys people for the thing that is sinful. Sodom was destroyed due to sodomy, among other things, even though God had not told them not to do it, as far as we know.
3. God says people who do such things without repentance will not be in His kingdom, or New Jerusalem, etc. Cowards are represented in this last group, but I'm not sure they are addressed in the other two categories anywhere.
4. God is described by Himself or His prophets as not doing something because it violates His character/nature.
There may be other categories, but these are the more obvious ones.
Unlike some things, lying is addressed in all four of these ways.
1. [Lev 19:11 KJV] 11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
2. [Rev 21:8 NLT] 8 "But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars--their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
3. [Zep 3:13 KJV] 13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make [them] afraid.
4. [Num 23:19 KJV] 19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Lying is never caveated with "bad lying" or "except when you have to save someone's life" or "to help God's people". It is always described as an evil thing, like here, where it is antithetical to the truth:
[1Jo 2:27 KJV] 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
And in the cases you and others have presented that humans have lied and are rewarded, there were other things the people were attempting to do that was worthy of the reward--the reward was never JUST for lying, but lying AND disobeying an evil law (midwives), or lying AND crying out for mercy (Rahab), to save large numbers of people, or some such.
You've admitted that lying is ONLY allowed under certain circumstances, which means you acknowledge the normal sinfulness of lying, but with exceptions (for circumstances).
All of the above is NOT negated just because Paul said "You shall not do evil that good may come," because, as I've pointed out, Paul was claiming that people accused him and other believers of saying that more sin means more grace and more grace is good. That attitude was not present in either the midwives or Rahab.
The above tells us lying is bad, that we should not do it, that God doesn't do it, and that it will be punished. So the episodes where God is presented as the impetus for a lying spirit need to be understood in the light of the other passages, and I don't see any difficulty there, just like I wouldn't call God evil because He sent an evil spirit to torment Saul.
Derf