Can God lie?

JudgeRightly

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Sure...Matt 18:21-22..."Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven."
Jesus doesn't mention repentance in Matt.

Do you think that Jesus contradicted Himself in the same paragraph?

Explain how Matthew 18:21-22 says "forgive him anyways," when Jesus just got dones saying "if [he] sins against you, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him"?

You could indeed see it that way, but with Matt 18 in mind,

Jesus does not contradict Himself.

It's not "either/or," Hoping. It's BOTH/AND.

Matthew 18:21-22 does not override or contradict Matthew 18:15 nor does it override Luke 17:3-4.

and the lessons from my own life, I find forgiveness a way easier load to bear in the passing years.

If all you have are anecdotes, you have very little indeed.

Maybe, but if it is so important, why wasn't repentance mentioned in Matt 18?

It was. You missed it.

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. - Matthew 18:15-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew18:15-17&version=NKJV

See also:

Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” - Luke 17:3-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke17:3-4&version=NKJV

What sort of heart have you got?

Quit dodging.

Yes, certainly.

Good answer.

But you will carry the unforgiveness in your heart until you find out again that if we don't forgive we won't be forgiven...as per the Lord's prayer.

You're attempting to place me under a law.

I have BEEN forgiven. Therefore, I will forgive (those who repent).

See the difference between what Jesus said, and what Paul said?

Why not "move on" with forgiveness in your heart?

Because that would be unjust.

Can't you "leave it in God's hands" if they don't repent to you?

"Can't"? You mean, "Can"?

Yes, I can, even without forgiving, because I know that God will repay.

It isn't like you have to spend something of your own in order to forgive.

Irrelevant.

Forgiving someone who has not repented is unjust.

It is cheap and easy to do, thanks be to God.

What is right is not always easy.

I thank God every single day for His forgiveness of me, and for teaching me how to forgive.

You learned how to forgive by listening to clichés. Read God's word, instead.

I rejoice in the fact that nobody will end up in the lake of fire for what they did to me.

So now you think you have the power to forgive sins?!?!

Quit your blasphemy!

Part of the divine nature of the reborn, I guess.

You are anything BUT "reborn," hoping!

REPENT NOW, before it's too late!

You have inadvertently added to scripture.

I HAVE NOT.

David:
I have hated the assembly of evildoers, And will not sit with the wicked. - Psalm 26:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm26:5&version=NKJV

You who love the Lord, hate evil! He preserves the souls of His saints; He delivers them out of the hand of the wicked. - Psalm 97:10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm97:10&version=NKJV

Solomon:
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate. - Proverbs 8:13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs8:13&version=NKJV

Amos:
Hate evil, love good; Establish justice in the gate. It may be that the Lord God of hosts Will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph. - Amos 5:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Amos5:15&version=NKJV

Hate by humans, is never good, ever.

WRONG.


Yes.
But I call it accurate record keeping.

No, God does not hold a grudge.

Are not evil doers and unrepentant the same thing?

Loaded question.
 

Hoping

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Do you think that Jesus contradicted Himself in the same paragraph?
No.
Explain how Matthew 18:21-22 says "forgive him anyways," when Jesus just got dones saying "if [he] sins against you, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him"?
I don't see that in Matt 18?
Jesus does not contradict Himself.
It's not "either/or," Hoping. It's BOTH/AND.
Matthew 18:21-22 does not override or contradict Matthew 18:15 nor does it override Luke 17:3-4.
I see no repentance mentioned in Matt 18.
Luke 17 and Matt 18 were conducted in differing environments, so different nuances may emerge dependent on the conditions.
Do you feel that you cannot forgive without hearing how sorry the offender was?
If all you have are anecdotes, you have very little indeed.
It was free, and an added insight.
It was. You missed it.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. - Matthew 18:15-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew18:15-17&version=NKJV
Ah, so "hears you" equates to "repentance".
It could indeed, but it does not say repentance outright.
See also:
Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” - Luke 17:3-4 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke17:3-4&version=NKJV
Amen to that...but what if he is too far away for you to hear it?
Quit dodging.
As good an answer as any. :(
Good answer.
OK. :)
You're attempting to place me under a law.
Nah, just under the Lord.
Were you trying to put me under the Law with your "repentance is required before we can forgive" stance?
I have BEEN forgiven. Therefore, I will forgive (those who repent).
Beautiful.
Why not forgive those who may not know who you were and have no way to repent to you when they sinned against you?
See the difference between what Jesus said, and what Paul said?
Not sure what you refer to...
Because that would be unjust.
Interesting concept.
I would rather forgive now than find out later that God forgave someone I refused to forgive.
"Can't"? You mean, "Can"?
No.
Yes, I can, even without forgiving, because I know that God will repay.
Or forgive.
Irrelevant.
Hardly.
Forgiving someone who has not repented is unjust.
Hardly.
Where was the man's repentance in Mark 2:5?..."When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee."
Or the woman in Luke 7:48?..."And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven."
What is right is not always easy.
Tell me about it... (rhetorical comment)
You learned how to forgive by listening to clichés. Read God's word, instead.
I will obey Jesus from a reborn heart with divine nature.
So now you think you have the power to forgive sins?!?!
We all have that power.
Quit your blasphemy!
?
You are anything BUT "reborn," hoping!
REPENT NOW, before it's too late!
Repentance produces non-sinners.
Done that, thanks to the grace and mercy of God.
I HAVE NOT.
Not inadvertently?
David:
I have hated the assembly of evildoers, And will not sit with the wicked. - Psalm 26:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm26:5&version=NKJV
You who love the Lord, hate evil! He preserves the souls of His saints; He delivers them out of the hand of the wicked. - Psalm 97:10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm97:10&version=NKJV
Solomon:
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate. - Proverbs 8:13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs8:13&version=NKJV
Amos:
Hate evil, love good; Establish justice in the gate. It may be that the Lord God of hosts Will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph. - Amos 5:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Amos5:15&version=NKJV
I didn't see anything about hating instead of forgiving.?
?
No, God does not hold a grudge.
He will, however, judge rightly.
Loaded question.
"Are not evil doers and unrepentant the same thing?"
 

JudgeRightly

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Then why do you assert that we should just forgive anyways, when Jesus said "rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive"?

You can't just get rid of the condition for forgiveness required by Jesus.

I don't see that in Matt 18?

Because your paradigm doesn't let you see it.

I see no repentance mentioned in Matt 18.

Verse 15.

Luke 17 and Matt 18 were conducted in differing environments, so different nuances may emerge dependent on the conditions.

So you think the principle changes just because the circumstances changed?

How inconsistent!

Do you feel that you cannot forgive without hearing how sorry the offender was?

What I feel is irrelevant.

Jesus said "rebuke him, and if he repents."

Ah, so "hears you" equates to "repentance".

It necessarily implies it. The principle Jesus gave in Luke 17:3 does not change just because we're in Matthew 18. The Bible is consistent with itself.

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.“Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made.The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.“But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt.So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done.Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” - Matthew 18:15-35 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew18:15-35&version=NKJV

If you're going to a brother and telling him his fault, you are rebuking him.

If he hears you, as opposed to not hearing you, he is repenting.

Of he does not hear you, then you bring more witnesses, "that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’" If he still doesn't hear you (unrepentant), you go to the authorities.

If he still doesn't hear you, is still unrepentant, "let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector," the idea being that no one wants anything to do with those kinds of people.

It could indeed, but it does not say repentance outright.

"Hearing" in this context means that one is repentant, Hoping. Don't read the Bible as if it were written by a lawyer.

What Jesus said in Matthew 18 is perfectly consistent with what He said in Luke 17.

Amen to that...but what if he is too far away for you to hear it?

Then he has refused to hear you, and you should "let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."

Nah, just under the Lord.

No, I meant what I said.

Were you trying to put me under the Law with your "repentance is required before we can forgive" stance?

Funny how you inherently recognize that that's law...

But no, I'm trying to teach you the Biblical principle Jesus is teaching.

Beautiful.
Why not forgive those who may not know who you were and have no way to repent to you when they sinned against you?
Because they have refused to hear.

Not sure what you refer to...

This is why I am constantly telling you that you don't know scripture as well as you claim.

I'm literally contrasting what Jesus said with what Paul said. Yes, contrasting. They are antithetical of each other.

Jesus said:
“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. - Matthew 6:14-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew6:14-15&version=NKJV

Whereas Paul said:
And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. - Ephesians 4:32 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians4:32&version=NKJV

Interesting concept.
I would rather forgive now than find out later that God forgave someone I refused to forgive.

You are unjust.


Then what you said becomes confusing.

Or forgive.

Only if someone repents.


False.


Wrong.

Where was the man's repentance in Mark 2:5?..."When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee."
Or the woman in Luke 7:48?..."And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven."

It was part of their faith.

I will obey Jesus from a reborn heart with divine nature.

You don't obey Him at all.

We all have that power.

Heretic!

We humans do not have the ability to forgive sins!

We can forgive ("can," not "should") the wrong that others have imposed on us, but we cannot forgive the sin itself!

Otherwise, what would be the point of Christ dying on the cross! GOD ALONE can forgive sin, because HE is the One being sinned against!

If a man rapes a woman, the woman could forgive him for wronging her. But if he is unrepentant, he will still go to hell because of his crime (which is also a sin) against her! His unrepentance is a result of her not demanding he repent before she forgives him. She has taught him, and every other rapist and potential rapist that they can be forgiven without having to repent.

This is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, and EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what we should be preaching to the lost!

"Repent of your sins and ask God for forgiveness!"

But you, Hoping, would rather forgive the rapist, and not rebuke him so that he repents!

Repentance produces non-sinners.

No.

Repentance is an act of humility.

You are anything but, your mock humility notwithstanding.

Not inadvertently?

What I said comes from scripture!

God tells us, in His word, to hate those who are evil.

I didn't see anything about hating instead of forgiving.

If you are unable to follow the conversation, read the what was said again.


If you are incapable of following the conversation, please humble yourself and ask God for wisdom.

"Are not evil doers and unrepentant the same thing?"

Doing the same thing the same way and expecting a different result is insanity.
 

Hoping

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Then why do you assert that we should just forgive anyways, when Jesus said "rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive"?
You can't just get rid of the condition for forgiveness required by Jesus.
Because your paradigm doesn't let you see it.
Verse 15.
So you think the principle changes just because the circumstances changed?
How inconsistent!
What I feel is irrelevant.
Jesus said "rebuke him, and if he repents."
It necessarily implies it. The principle Jesus gave in Luke 17:3 does not change just because we're in Matthew 18. The Bible is consistent with itself.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.“Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made.The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.“But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt.So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done.Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” - Matthew 18:15-35 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew18:15-35&version=NKJV
If you're going to a brother and telling him his fault, you are rebuking him.
If he hears you, as opposed to not hearing you, he is repenting.
Of he does not hear you, then you bring more witnesses, "that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’" If he still doesn't hear you (unrepentant), you go to the authorities.
If he still doesn't hear you, is still unrepentant, "let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector," the idea being that no one wants anything to do with those kinds of people.
"Hearing" in this context means that one is repentant, Hoping. Don't read the Bible as if it were written by a lawyer.
What Jesus said in Matthew 18 is perfectly consistent with what He said in Luke 17.
Then he has refused to hear you, and you should "let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector."
No, I meant what I said.
Funny how you inherently recognize that that's law...
But no, I'm trying to teach you the Biblical principle Jesus is teaching.
While understanding "hears you" could indeed mean "repent to you", the situations in Matt and Luke differ because in Matt repentance is not mentioned.
That allows me a door to forgive without repentance of the offender.
Those from far in my past, some whom are dead, cannot repent to me.
Am I to refuse to have mercy on them just because Jesus in one of two scenarios exhorted to forgive after their repentance?
Where has Jesus commanded non-forgiveness...ever?
I can't carry hate or vengeance in my heart since I was reborn of God's seed.
 

JudgeRightly

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While understanding "hears you" could indeed mean "repent to you",

It IS, in fact, what it means, and there's nothing that would indicate otherwise, and the context does not allow for it to mean anything else.

Why can't you just let scripture say what it says?

Why do you have to twist it to try and get it to say something other than what it says?

the situations in Matt and Luke differ

Saying it doesn't make it so.

because in Matt repentance is not mentioned.

Yes it is. Not the word "repentance," specifically, but when has that ever been a requirement for the Bible to teach a concept or principle?

That allows me a door to forgive without repentance of the offender.

It does not.

Where has Jesus commanded non-forgiveness...ever?

". . . Sins against you, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him."

since I was reborn of God's seed.

Quit lying.
 

Hoping

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Blasphemy will not be tolerated on TOL.
It IS, in fact, what it means, and there's nothing that would indicate otherwise, and the context does not allow for it to mean anything else.
If repentance is mentioned in one case, but not the other, it is apparent to me that repentance is not necessary for my forgiveness.
And I thank God for allowing me to forgive the now long dead.
Why can't you just let scripture say what it says?
Don't you mean "absence of scripture"?
"Repentance is absent in Matt.
Why do you have to twist it to try and get it to say something other than what it says?
I don't need to justify my divine nature.
I thank God for it.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Saying repentance is necessary when it isn't spelled out "doesn't make it so".
Yes it is. Not the word "repentance," specifically, but when has that ever been a requirement for the Bible to teach a concept or principle?
Maybe this is the very first time ?
Jesus was, you know, moving from the Mosaic Law's "tooth for a tooth" and unto, love your enemies, during His days on earth.
It does not.
I will forgive, in the name of Jesus Christ.
If you choose not to, it is your choice.
". . . Sins against you, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him."
What if his repentance is years later and you have lost contact with him?
Are you going to carry around your hate, or disdain, or whatever weight you are comfortable with for the rest of your life?
I choose not to.
Quit lying.
Were you reborn?
 

JudgeRightly

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If repentance is mentioned in one case, but not the other, it is apparent to me that repentance is not necessary for my forgiveness.
And I thank God for allowing me to forgive the now long dead.

Or you're just an idiot.

Don't you mean "absence of scripture"?
"Repentance is absent in Matt.

I meant what I said.

You're missing the forest for the trees.

I don't need to justify my divine nature.
I thank God for it.

Quit your blasphemy!

God alone has a divine nature.

You are not Him.

Saying repentance is necessary when it isn't spelled out "doesn't make it so".

Which is why I backed up my position with reason.

Maybe this is the very first time?

No.

Jesus was, you know, moving from the Mosaic Law's "tooth for a tooth" and unto, love your enemies, during His days on earth.

Loving one's neighbor (yes, that includes your enemies) has always been a part of the Mosaic law.

Jesus did not do away with "eye for eye" punishments. To do so is literally unjust.

He wasn't moving away from the law. He was correcting Israel's misconceptions and hearsay about it.

"You have heard it said..." is a good indicator.

Nothing of what Jesus said after the words, "but I say unto you", after He tells them what they've heard, is in any way a change of the law that He gave to Moses.

I will forgive, in the name of Jesus Christ.
If you choose not to, it is your choice.

You do so wrongly.

What if his repentance is years later and you have lost contact with him?

What about it?

If you won't find out about it until judgement day, then why worry about it?

But there's no reason to forgive him until then, because as far as you're aware, he hasn't repented.

Are you going to carry around your hate, or disdain, or whatever weight you are comfortable with for the rest of your life?
I choose not to.

Why do you beg the question and assume that not forgiving someone would be a burden?

Were you reborn?

I am a new creation. "Being reborn" was strictly for Israel as part of the New Covenant. I am not under the New Covenant. I am under the dispensation of the grace of God.
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
No, it doesn't follow. The reason why we use the word "murder" is because it distinguishes between a wrongful killing and a necessary killing (like "execution", which is commanded by God for crimes such as "murder"). God never commanded anyone to lie, despite @Clete's assertion.
my contention is
something is determined right or wrong by the situation

you're saying something is determined right or wrong by it's name , but that has to be determined by the situation




What is the word For a good lie? There isn't one.
stratagem
No situation determines that "murder" is right, because it means "to wrongfully kill another human."
cart before the horse
the situation determines right or wrong and what to call it
No, a "liar" is someone who lies. And you can tell by the way @JudgeRightly and @Clete use it here in the forum that it's a perjorative. You never see them call someone "liar" and mean something good by it.

the situation determines right or wrong

Corrie Ten Boom
biden

They never wait to see if good comes from the lie, or if the liar is eventually blessed by God. The bible uses liar in a similar way--never in a good way.
so ?
something is determined right or wrong by the situation
Rittenhouse was justified in killing them. He did not "murder" them.
something is determined right or wrong by the situation not by what you label it

According to situational ethics you have espoused, you can't tell whether Biden is a "liar" yet, because you can't see whether he's doing it for a righteous cause or if God will eventually bless him for his lies.
wrong
liar , a person who tells lies has a reputation as a liar
 

Derf

Well-known member
my contention is
something is determined right or wrong by the situation

you're saying something is determined right or wrong by it's name , but that has to be determined by the situation
I don't think we're in much disagreement on this. The difference in what I'm saying is that "murder" is used for the situation where killing is wrong. If it's determined not to be wrong, then it is called something else, like "self defense", or "justifiable homicide".

Despite the words of the 6th commandment in the KJV, the command isn't "do not ever kill", but "do not murder".

Maybe there's a case to be made that the 9th commandment is not "do not lie", but "do not bear false witness against your neighbor." But the former wording is strengthened by other passages, like ones already referenced in this thread.
stratagem

cart before the horse
the situation determines right or wrong and what to call it


the situation determines right or wrong

Corrie Ten Boom
biden


so ?
something is determined right or wrong by the situation

something is determined right or wrong by the situation not by what you label it


wrong
liar , a person who tells lies has a reputation as a liar
No, a liar is one who lies. One might be a temporary liar, but still a liar. Ask @Clete and @JudgeRightly. They both use the term for a person after a single lie--they don't wait until a reputation is formed.
 

Hoping

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Quit your blasphemy!
God alone has a divine nature.
You are not Him.
It is written..."Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:4)
Of course I am not Him, but I have been reborn of His seed.
Why would I have a different nature than my Father?
I am a new creation. "Being reborn" was strictly for Israel as part of the New Covenant. I am not under the New Covenant. I am under the dispensation of the grace of God.
Do you really see a difference between being reborn and being a new creation?
Both needed the destruction of the old man for the new man to appear.
 

JudgeRightly

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It is written..."Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:4)

I don't see anywhere in that verse where it says we are given a divine nature. It's just not what it says.

Of course I am not Him, but I have been reborn of His seed.
Why would I have a different nature than my Father?

You are of your father, the devil.

Do you really see a difference between being reborn and being a new creation?

Paul clearly thought there was a difference.

If they're the same, why didn't Paul use "born again," as Jesus did? Why did he describe something different?

Both needed the destruction of the old man for the new man to appear.

No, being "born again" did not require the destruction of anything. It simply required being baptized "of water and the Spirit."

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” - John 3:5-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John3:5-8&version=NKJV

Baptizing was "cleansing," not "destruction."
 

Hoping

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I don't see anywhere in that verse where it says we are given a divine nature. It's just not what it says.



You are of your father, the devil.



Paul clearly thought there was a difference.

If they're the same, why didn't Paul use "born again," as Jesus did? Why did he describe something different?



No, being "born again" did not require the destruction of anything. It simply required being baptized "of water and the Spirit."

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” - John 3:5-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John3:5-8&version=NKJV

Baptizing was "cleansing," not "destruction."
I'm sorry you don't see it.
 

JudgeRightly

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Romans 6:3 KJV — Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Death is kinda destructive, don't you think?

Yeah, that's "new creation" not "born again."

In the context of the New Covenant (and the Old, for that matter), baptism was a cleansing. It had nothing to do with death, afaik.

However, in the context of the dispensation of grace, baptism means being baptized into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, by the Holy Spirit, and becoming a "new creature."

See the difference?
 

Derf

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Yeah, that's "new creation" not "born again."

In the context of the New Covenant (and the Old, for that matter), baptism was a cleansing. It had nothing to do with death, afaik.

However, in the context of the dispensation of grace, baptism means being baptized into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, by the Holy Spirit, and becoming a "new creature."

See the difference?
I see the difference, and agree, that death, burial, resurrection is new creation material. But I can't see how it is different from born again from the dead.

Surely if we are new creations, it's not substantially different than being born again of a new type of person/a new man. Jesus wasn't talking about being born again into the same thing Nicodemus already was.

I recoil a bit, as you did, from us having a "divine nature" @Hoping spoke of, but at the same time, we are become children of God, meaning in some way we are His seed. And that does fit with being born again, or being made new creatures.

Can we be children of God, and brothers of Jesus Christ His son, filled with His Spirit, without being in some way divine, even if only through adoption? Would God deny His attributes to those whom He considers His children?

It's at least worth asking the question.

Or, is it that much of a stretch for God to make Sons of God from humans if He can make sons of Abraham from stones?
 

JudgeRightly

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I see the difference, and agree, that death, burial, resurrection is new creation material. But I can't see how it is different from born again from the dead.

I don't see any mention of death in Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” - John 3:3-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John3:3-21&version=NKJV

Versus Paul:

For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart.For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you.For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. - 2 Corinthians 5:12-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians5:12-21&version=NKJV

And:

See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand!As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. - Galatians 6:11-15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians6:11-15&version=NKJV

Surely if we are new creations, it's not substantially different than being born again of a new type of person/a new man. Jesus wasn't talking about being born again into the same thing Nicodemus already was.

I think the problem here is that the phrase "born-again" has been appropriated by Christianity to mean "made into a new creature."

Once you recognize that, then "born again" in the context of Jesus speaking to Jesus becomes something different, and there's no reason to think it's the same thing Paul spoke of "just using different terminology."

but at the same time, we are become children of God, meaning in some way we are His seed. And that does fit with being born again, or being made new creatures.

The problem is that Paul doesn't say that "we are His seed."

We're "fellow heirs of the promise." We are "Abraham's seed."

In fact, Paul even goes so far as to say:

Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. - Galatians 3:16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians3:16&version=NKJV

Yes, we are in Christ, but that does not mean we are given a divine nature.

We have put on Christ, yes, in that we were baptized into Him.

Can we be children of God, and brothers of Jesus Christ His son,

"Brothers of Jesus Christ"?

Verse please.

filled with His Spirit, without being in some way divine, even if only through adoption?

We are not given Godhood by becoming Christians. We have become sons of God, but even as Adam was the son of God, and we are descendants of Adam, Adam was no more divine than any of his descendants. (Except Christ, of course, but He IS God!)

Would God deny His attributes to those whom He considers His children?

I don't think that includes "divinity," ie, being God or a god.

It's at least worth asking the question.

Or, is it that much of a stretch for God to make Sons of God from humans if He can make sons of Abraham from stones?

When one speaks of the "divine nature," it's referring to God's nature as "God."

We do not become God simply because we become sons of God. Remember, we are adopted into His family, not His direct descendants like Christ was.
 

Hoping

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Romans 6:3 KJV — Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Death is kinda destructive, don't you think?
With Rom 6:6 added in destruction is obvious..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Thank God we can be raised with Christ from our water baptism into Him, and his death and burial, to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-4)
 

Hoping

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I see the difference, and agree, that death, burial, resurrection is new creation material. But I can't see how it is different from born again from the dead.

Surely if we are new creations, it's not substantially different than being born again of a new type of person/a new man. Jesus wasn't talking about being born again into the same thing Nicodemus already was.

I recoil a bit, as you did, from us having a "divine nature" @Hoping spoke of, but at the same time, we are become children of God, meaning in some way we are His seed. And that does fit with being born again, or being made new creatures.

Can we be children of God, and brothers of Jesus Christ His son, filled with His Spirit, without being in some way divine, even if only through adoption? Would God deny His attributes to those whom He considers His children?

It's at least worth asking the question.

Or, is it that much of a stretch for God to make Sons of God from humans if He can make sons of Abraham from stones?
If the old man is not destroyed, our rebirth / new creature would have an evil twin walking around.
One has to go before the other takes its place.
 
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