Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Election is unto salvation, not to salvation

Election is unto salvation, not to salvation

God only saves whom He knows will persevere, because a perfect God does not make mistakes.

God's choice of electing unto salvation was not based upon some foreseen merit, as in foreseeing those who will persevere. The great multitude no man can number chosen by God out of the contemplated fallen lump of humanity in Adam will persevere because God chose them and God will see to it by the many means He has ordained to achieve His ends.

AMR

 

[Nanja]

Notice that when He mentions their punishment He does not say it was prepared for them but for "the devil and his angels." Had these people trusted in him they too could have been sheep in the end. What made them into goats was how they lived. Sheep have an abiding love/faith relationship in Christ that makes them the kind of people that give Christ's love. Anyone who does not abide in His love until the end will be found to be goats who will be "cast away as a branch" and put in the fire where there is endless "weeping"

Salvation is not of works, not by anything a person does or does not do.

Christ gave His Life for every one of His Sheep. That's it!

John 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Christ tasted death from every one of His Sheep Heb. 2:9, and was brought again from the dead as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep.

So, if a person is never given Faith / Belief in New Birth, they were never one of Christ's Sheep.

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


Mat. 13:38-40

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.


The goats were cursed from everlasting, so they go right into the everlasting fire with their father Mat. 25:41.

 

[beloved57]

Nanja

Christ tasted death from every one of His Sheep Heb. 2:9, and was brought again from the dead as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep.

Amen, it's obvious to the spiritual honest heart that the ones Christ tasted death for are every one of His Sheep Heb 2:9, since He was raised from the death as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb 13:20

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

 

[Nanja]

Nanja

Amen, it's obvious to the spiritual honest heart that the ones Christ tasted death for are every one of His Sheep Heb 2:9, since He was raised from the death as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb 13:20

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Yes it is Brother! It's contextually very appropriate to understand that the "every" [pas] is every one of Christ's Sheep He tasted death for. :thumb:

 

[Shasta]

The historic Reformed confessions, WCF, Helvetic, Belgic, Heidelberg, are affirmed by Reformed confessional church groups as accurate summaries of the teachings of Scripture on the matters discussed therein. When I quote from them I am using the constitutional basis of the church I have covenanted with, been instructed by, and affirm. In other words, I have actually Scripturally studied the matters of doctrine summarized in these confesssions, along with the saints of the past five hundred years. I am not mindlessly restating some words I have heard or read elsewhere...parroting.

As I have often stated, as below or as elsewhere:

Persons constructing straw men of the Calvinist's views by claiming we operate from the same presuppositions they do and therefore believe about our beliefs what they believe about our beliefs leaves no hope for honest discussion.

If persons would avail themselves of a scripturally accurate summary of our beliefs, e.g., WCF, with a nice exposition of the same here, much clarity would ensue. Unfortunately some prefer to just parrot others in discussion forums and not dig deeper.​

You are not unintelligent, so I assume you asked the question to make some point rather than just stating it up front, no matter what my answer may happen to be. So please, do get on with it.

AMR

I was saying that as others get their ideas from somewhere so do you. On your last post I saw quite a bit of what I call proof-texting, that is, you cited lists of scriptures without explanation or context such as anyone might easily do by copying and pasting preexisting materials. At least I try to explain my understanding of the scriptures I post. If we can agree that parroting is not merely quoting but quoting without understanding or explanation then we are on the same page.

Now, regarding what you told Robert before about it being better to ACTUALLY save some than to HYPOTHETICALLY save all, your argument seemed to have force but it lacks logical coherence. Of course, the Lord wants to actually save people but before something can be done actually it must first be possible hypothetically. Logically, if something cannot happen potentially then it cannot happen actually. Your argument, therefore, is specious in that it treats hypotheticals as if they were nothing more than mere fiction.

It is very common in the Bible for God to issue a command (like “repent” or "believe") and then use the conditional conjunction “IF” to attach an offer of reward or punishment. This is so common that it could be said to be God’s usual method of persuasion.

Scripture in OT
…18"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They will be like wool. 19"If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land; 20"But if you refuse and rebel, You will be devoured by the sword." Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken
(Isaiah 1:18-20)

Here God appeals to Israel’s ability to reason (almost as if their "fallen reason" could be used to stimulate moral/spiritual change). To make clear what the possible consequences of their choice would be God uses the conjunction IF:

"If you consent and obey, You will eat the best of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, You will be devoured by the sword.”

Since I am not a follower of John Calvin I can take this verse just as it stands. All the people of Israel whom the prophet was addressing were being given a real choice. The fact that some would refuse the offer did not make it a sham choice. If I WERE a Calvinist the interpretation would get more complicated. For one, I would have to assume that, despite actual wording of the prophecy, which seems to present a choice, really choice was not really theirs but God's. Their apparent decision would be no more than an epiphenomenon of an exertion of God's divine power. Given that nation's poor response to the prophets it is obvious that it was not even potentially possible for any but a small number to repent yet for all that the disobedient would be held accountable for their "decision" Thus, what appears to be an open invitation would actually be a closed invitation sent out like a coded message to be received only by a select few.

What then can we say then about the offer of hypothetical rewards? As regards the nation as a whole we would have to say the offer was rigged..and by God who made sure that as a nation they would not repent. Had this sort of reward offer been presented by a business they could be sued for false advertising. Making an offer of reward to the public when it is really only available to a few who have already been selected is simply dishonest.

Scripture in NT
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.…
(Romans 10:9-11)

Here Paul presents the gospel, opening it up with one of those horrid hypothetical, “IF.” Like the prophets of the OT Paul presents conditions. He says that their confession must be “Jesus is Lord” Since I do not believe this is merely a rote recitation, it must therefore be a statement about the nature and position of the Son as well as the positioning of oneself under His Lordship. Paul says that we must believe (or have faith) in our heart (the seat of our motives) that God “raised Him from the dead.” His work on the cross and the consummation of His work in the Resurrection is an essential truth one must believe to be saved.

Now, since I am not a Calvinist, I can take this offer as it is without importing other ideas into the text, such as treating the offer as only possible for a few. This presumption functions as a Trojan containing the idea of determinism which was not taught in the Early Church until the days of Augustine. I take this verse as it stands to mean that if I or anyone else meets these CONDITIONS they will be saved. This does not mean that a person cannot resist the call of the Holy Spirit. People have resisted the Spirit before and after salvation. However, I believe there is hope for anyone. I certainly do not believe God hates most of humanity as some here have said about the unregenerate “sons” of Esau.

 

[Shasta]

Salvation is not of works, not by anything a person does or does not do.

You make this statement without adequately defining what "works" are. Obviously, when Paul speaks of "works" he would not be referring to the kind of meritorious "works" which the Pharisees did their attempt to attain righteousness and thereby inherit eternal life. No amount of "good works" can “buy” us eternal life.

I take “works” as the apostles Paul, John and James use it to mean the results of the Holy Spirit working in and through us. This does not come from us but from our abiding in the Vine in dependent faith. If we do that, Jesus said, we will produce fruit. Anyone of us who abides, remains, continues in Him will inherit eternal life when we meet Him. Anyone who turns from Him and enters into a lifestyle of sin will not.

Luke 18:30
Why would Jesus say that making the Kingdom first in our lives is directly connected with whether or not we will inherit eternal life if it were not so?


Romans 2:6-8
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Evidently, inheriting eternal life requires endurance and, yes, (shudder) well doing as opposed to obeying unrighteousness. It does not sound like a one-time profession of faith or a passive acceptance of even correct doctrine automatically guarantees anyone an irrevocable pass into heaven. It also establishes the choices a person makes as the primary reason for their receiving eternal life and not some invisible position as "elect" Someone "elected" to receive a reward should not need to do anything to receive it.


John 5:28-29
Who is it who will be resurrected to (eternal) life? Is it those who made a one-time profession of faith? Is it those who adhere to all the tenets of TULIP? No whether or not a person will enjoy eternal life will be decided by whether or not they remained faithful and stayed in the Vine. The results of such a relationship is always "good."

Matthew 25:31-46
Nothing is mentioned in this passage about the predestined status of the goats or sheep, although, if that had been the sole reason for their fate you would think it would have at least been hinted at. Instead, the Lord says they entered into either joy or torment because of the choices they had made in life.

In the imagery of the parable there was one mixed flock which, at a distance, might have looked homogeneous. In the end, certain ones were identified as acceptable and others as unacceptable. These were separated into two groups. One half was accepted by the Master and entered into eternal life while the other half was rejected and suffered eternal judgment. According to this parable the ONLY difference between who ended up being classified as goats and who ended up as sheep was what they did or did not DO.

According to Jesus, sheep are people who maintain the characteristics of sheep, that is, they listen to and follow after their Shepherd. In order to receive eternal life we have to keep following and listening to the Shepherd in faith/love/obedience until the very end. Refusing to follow and listen will gradually harden our hearts and can eventually even change our status. Giving into corruption and developing an appetite for sheep can, over time, change even healthy "sheep" into a wolf.

 

[Nanja]

Nanja

Salvation is not of works, not by anything a person does or does not do Eph. 2:8-9.

Correct!


Shasta

You make this statement without adequately defining what "works" are.

Works are any conditions the natural man meets in an attempt to make himself right with God, to attain Salvation.

you mean any choice or action

Correct. Nothing they do can please God.

Rom. 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

In fact, the scripture disagrees with you. First of all, let me present my view which is that faith, love and obedience are inseparable. All emanate from an ongoing relationship of faith/love/obedience John describes as "abiding in the Vine." If we are found to be still abiding in the Vine when we meet Him then we will inherit eternal life.

Those who abide in the Vine [Christ] are exclusive to those who were chosen In Union with Him before the foundation Eph. 1:4. They will forever abide in Him and with Him!

Romans 2:6-8
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Christ suffered the Wrath of God for all the sins of the Elect as their Covenant Head and Surety Heb. 7:22; Is. 53:6. The sins they would ever commit in their lifetime were imputed to Him Rom. 4:6-8, and He suffered the wrath of God which they deserved. The same wrath that the non-elect deserve and will receive according to Rom. 2:6-9.

Evidently, inheriting eternal life requires endurance

Christ is the Author and Finisher of the Faith given to all His Elect in Him, when they are Born of the Spirit Gal. 5:22.

Heb. 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Obviously, when Paul speaks of "works" he would not be referring to the kind of meritorious "works" which the Pharisees did their attempt to attain righteousness and thereby inherit eternal life. No amount of "good works" can “buy” us eternal life. Therefore “works” here must mean something else. From a number of scriptures that I will not cite at the moment I have concluded that by “works” is meant the results of the Holy Spirit working in and through us. This does not come from us but from our abiding in the Vine in dependent faith. If we do that, Jesus says, we will produce fruit.

Remember, no works whatsoever done by the natural man can please God Rom. 8:8.

However, the Election of Grace Christ died for, they are made Righteous by the Obedience of Christ on their behalf:

Rom. 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

John 5:28-29
Who is it who will be resurrected to (eternal) life? Is it those who made a one-time profession of faith? Is it those who adhere to all the tenets of TULIP? No whether or not a person will enjoy eternal life will be decided by whether or not they remained faithful and stayed in the Vine. The results of such a relationship is always "good."

All Christ's Sheep He gave His Life for John 10:11,15,28.

Matthew 25:46
Nothing is mentioned in this passage about the predestined status of the goats or sheep, although, if that had been the sole reason for their fate you would think it would have at least been hinted at. Instead, the Lord says they entered into either joy or torment because of the choices they had made in life.

Salvation has nothing to do with anything a person does or does not do, but rather with those whom Christ has Saved according to His Purpose and Grace Eph. 2:8-9 from Everlasting !

2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

In the beginning of the parable there was apparently one flock which at a distance looked homogeneous. In the end certain ones were identified as acceptable and unacceptable and were separated into two groups. One half was accepted and entered into eternal life while the other half was rejected. According to this parable the ONLY difference between who ended up being classified as goats and who ended up as sheep was what they did or did not DO.

Sheep are those who maintain the characteristics of sheep, that is, they listen to and follow after their shepherd. In order to receive eternal life we have to keep following and listening to the Shepherd in faith/love/obedience until the end. Refusing to follow and listen will gradually change our hearts and our status. Giving into corruption and developing an appetite for sheep will change a person into a wolf.

No amount of works a person does has any bearing on their Salvation. It's a done deal, immutable!

One is either a vessel of wrath prepared for destruction [goat]Rom. 9:22; Mat. 25:41.

Or a Vessel of Mercy which He had afore prepared unto Glory [Sheep] Rom. 9:23; Mat. 25:34.


Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[Robert Pate]

To believe that God predestinates people to heaven or to hell is to believe that God is unjust.

If you believe that God is unjust you will most certainly perish.

 

[beloved57]

To believe that God predestinates people to heaven or to hell is to believe that God is unjust.

If you believe that God is unjust you will most certainly perish.

Replying against God !

 

[Robert Pate]

Replying against God !

You believe that God is unjust. If you believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born you also believe that he is unjust. It is an unjust action any way that you slice it. Those people that have been condemned to hell will also be able to accuse God God of being unjust in the judgment.

 

[Clete]

You must browse through the Institutes looking for random portions to cut and paste that do not contain bible quotes, in the attempt to make this point. Calvin's Institutes is replete with scripture references! Just as exampled in the bolded paragraph above.

If you think any statement presented by Calvin is unbiblical, the onus is upon you to prove how it is unbiblical, for after all, Calvin was a Christian theologian far more educated, proven, and esteemed than yourself.

No, there is no onus. I'll let the statements hold their own weight, if they can.

Those statements, of which there are dozens more, along with the fact that you and AMR endorse them even after having denied, in the previous breath, that Calvinism teaches these same things, is all the testimony I need.

Calvinism's god bears no resemblance to the God of scripture Who is Justice, Who is Love, Who is Righteousness. Those who understand what Calvinism teaches and do not reject it, worship a false god, teach a false gospel and are lost in their sin, blinded by their highly educated ignorance.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

To believe that God predestinates people to heaven or to hell is to believe that God is unjust.

If you believe that God is unjust you will most certainly perish.

The god of Calvinism is unjust (or would be if he existed) but it probably isn't accurate to say that they believe that their god is unjust. They believe that justice is a moral consideration and that their god is not subject to morality.

They really do talk out of both sides of their mouths on this issue. They're quick to say that their god is just but never bother to mention that their concept of justice, when applied to their god, is synonymous with the word arbitrary. They believe that anything god does is just by virtue of the fact that god did it. If their god were to decide that murder was righteous when performed on the fifth Monday of a month, then Fifth Mondey Murder would be just in the Calvinist's view - period.

It's complete nonsense that has nothing at all to do with biblical Christianity. I stopped treating any Calvinist on this website as a believer long ago. There are millions of Christians who think they're Calvinists that do not understand what the doctrine actually teaches who love Jesus Christ and trust Him as their savior but I know of none on this website (which doesn't mean they don't exist). And, as I'm sure you already know, it is fruitless to attempt any debate with them. They're the most irrational of all of God's creatures. They redefine any term that gets in their way. They deny one teaching and then endorse it in the next breath or vise-versa. It's impossible to discuss theology with an educated Calvinist. Their minds are literally broken.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I have no doubt that you know all of that already. I just used your post as an excuse to say it.

 

[beloved57]

You believe that God is unjust. If you believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born you also believe that he is unjust. It is an unjust action any way that you slice it. Those people that have been condemned to hell will also be able to accuse God God of being unjust in the judgment.

You reliest against God. That's evil.

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Robert Pate]

The god of Calvinism is unjust (or would be if he existed) but it probably isn't accurate to say that they believe that their god is unjust. They believe that justice is a moral consideration and that their god is not subject to morality.

They really do talk out of both sides of their mouths on this issue. They're quick to say that their god is just but never bother to mention that their concept of justice, when applied to their god, is synonymous with the word arbitrary. They believe that anything god does is just by virtue of the fact that god did it. If their god were to decide that murder was righteous when performed on the fifth Monday of a month, then Fifth Mondey Murder would be just in the Calvinist's view - period.

It's complete nonsense that has nothing at all to do with biblical Christianity. I stopped treating any Calvinist on this website as a believer long ago. There are millions of Christians who think they're Calvinists that do not understand what the doctrine actually teaches who love Jesus Christ and trust Him as their savior but I know of none on this website (which doesn't mean they don't exist). And, as I'm sure you already know, it is fruitless to attempt any debate with them. They're the most irrational of all of God's creatures. They redefine any term that gets in their way. They deny one teaching and then endorse it in the next breath or vise-versa. It's impossible to discuss theology with an educated Calvinist. Their minds are literally broken.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I have no doubt that you know all of that already. I just used your post as an excuse to say it.

Yep, you nailed it.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

No Hypotheticals From God's Perspective

No Hypotheticals From God's Perspective

Logically, if something cannot happen potentially then it cannot happen actually. Your argument, therefore, is specious in that it treats hypotheticals as if they were nothing more than mere fiction.

One must not confuse the world of logical possibility with the actual world; and one must remember that the actual world is actualized by God's decree that necessitates things to occur. We have to distinguish contingency from God's view and man's. "Hypothetical" here is "contrary to fact." It supposes another state of affairs altogether different from the one God has ordained in the time and space which we occupy. If one posits contingency in God it can lead in a number of bad directions: middle knowledge and open theism, for example. There are no hypotheticals in God's view, only man's.

AMR

 

[Shasta]

Nanja

Correct!


Shasta

Works are any conditions the natural man meets in an attempt to make himself right with God, to attain Salvation.

Correct. Nothing they do can please God.

The assumption is that it is an unregenerate man trying to attain salvation. The scriptures I cited were not about "natural men trying to earn salvation."

Rom. 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Now you need to define what you mean by "the carnal mind" When I asked your buddy 57 to define it he arrogantly refused saying he was not my "lackey"

Those who abide in the Vine [Christ] are exclusive to those who were chosen In Union with Him before the foundation Eph. 1:4. They will forever abide in Him and with Him!

Those who start abiding in the vine may not continue to do so. Abiding means to "continue" and "remain" in which is an ongoing choice we must make. This is clear in the passage that deals with abiding:

If anyone does not remain (continue, abide) in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned (John 15:6).

Christ suffered the Wrath of God for all the sins of the Elect as their Covenant Head and Surety Heb. 7:22; Is. 53:6. The sins they would ever commit in their lifetime were imputed to Him Rom. 4:6-8, and He suffered the wrath of God which they deserved. The same wrath that the non-elect deserve and will receive according to Rom. 2:6-9.

I have some reservations about this view.

Christ is the Author and Finisher of the Faith given to all His Elect in Him, when they are Born of the Spirit Gal. 5:22.

Heb. 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Remember, no works whatsoever done by the natural man can please God Rom. 8:8.

Again I have never made that claim. I hope you are not suggesting that Paul or Jesus is saying that. When I gave you those scriptures I was quoting them. Instead of answering that you diverted the discussion from the obedience of faith to meritorious works

However, the Election of Grace Christ died for, they are made Righteous by the Obedience of Christ on their behalf:

Rom. 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So you think that because Christians are forgiven they are not required to obey Him? This is shown to be false in many scriptures, for instance, in the parable of the Unjust Servant (Matthew 24:48-51) This man started out as a faithful slave who knew his Master personally. Later, however, he fell into a lifestyle of sin. When the Lord returned the man was given the sentence of an unbeliever (i.e., hell) which is not what he would have had if he had been obedient.

All Christ's Sheep He gave His Life for John 10:11,15,28.

Salvation has nothing to do with anything a person does or does not do, but rather with those whom Christ has Saved according to His Purpose and Grace Eph. 2:8-9 from Everlasting

!


2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
No amount of works a person does has any bearing on their Salvation. It's a done deal, immutable!

Though you have attempted to avoid the scriptures I brought up and divert my attention to others I will bring them up again with the hope that it will simulate some intelligent discussion.

First let us consider
Romans 2:6-8
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience (endurance) in well-doing (i.e., Godly choices or actions) seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give (not just any reward but) eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

So while it is true that meritorious legalistic works will not earn salvation for anyone, active obedience is certainly required if one is to continue in Christ and eventually receive the gift of eternal life.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

But I thought nothing a person did affected his salvation one way or another.

Next Matthew 25 on the matter of sheep and goats which we have had lively discussions about before. Please note that, however much I disagree with you, I respect your devotion to understanding the scriptures and I believe you are a true believer. That being said, I must disagree with you yet again. When we have discussed the meaning of the metaphors of goats and sheep before. You take it as evidence of predestination. However, Jesus said that these two groups will be differentiated by the choices they make in their lives here on earth. When Jesus addresses His sheep he says: "inasmuch as you have done it to the least of these you have done it to me." (Matthew 25:34-40) Doing indicates an ongoing activity or practice. Obviously, the love of God was working through these people.

Likewise to the goats Jesus will say "inasmuch as you have NOT done it to the least of these you have NOT done it to me" (Matthew 25:41-46)Though these goats apparently knew Jesus, their inaction proved that their faith had died and just as James said: "faith without works is dead. The point is, being in relationship with the Shepherd is not a static legal state but an ongoing abiding relationship of faith, love and obedience

One is either a vessel of wrath prepared for destruction [goat]Rom. 9:22; Mat. 25:41.
Or a Vessel of Mercy which He had afore prepared unto Glory [Sheep] Rom. 9:23; Mat. 25:34.

I have already answered this

Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

I am not questioning God I am questioning Calvin's ideas about who God is and what He does.

 

[Nanja]

Nanja

Correct!


Shasta



The assumption is that it is an unregenerate man trying to attain salvation. The scriptures I cited were not about "natural men trying to earn salvation."



Now you need to define what you mean by "the carnal mind" When I asked your buddy 57 to define it he arrogantly refused saying he was not my "lackey"



Those who stat abiding in the vine may not continue to do so. Abiding means to "continue" and "remain" in which is an ongoing choice we must make. This is clear in the passage that deals with abiding:

6 If anyone does not remain (continue, abide) in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned (John 15:6).









Again I never made that claim. I hope you are not suggesting that Paul or Jesus is saying that. I was quoting their words and, instead of answering that you have diverted the discussion from obedience of faith to meritorious works

However, the Election of Grace Christ died for, they are made Righteous by the Obedience of Christ on their behalf:

Rom. 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I am not questioning God I am questioning Calvin's ideas about who God is and what He does.

I never quoted Calvin, I quoted the scriptures!

 

[Shasta]

One must not confuse the world of logical possibility with the actual world; and one must remember that the actual world is actualized by God's decree that necessitates things to occur. We have to distinguish contingency from God's view and man's. "Hypothetical" here is "contrary to fact." It supposes another state of affairs altogether different from the one God has ordained in the time and space which we occupy. If one posits contingency in God it can lead in a number of bad directions: middle knowledge and open theism, for example. There are no hypotheticals in God's view, only man's.

AMR

That is just another way of saying your opinion is the "actual one." You say we should not be confused between logical contingencies and the real world. Well when I read that God tells a people that IF they will repent, believe they will be saved I assume that it is a logical and actual possibility for whoever he is speaking to. Your belief system leads you to think that although the call SEEMS to be open to all, it is an actual impossibility, for most who hear it - not because of their own unwillingness to meet the conditions but because of some action or inaction on God's part.

To make Calvinism work you have to cleverly insert quite a bit into the blank spaces in between the lines of ordinary language. It reminds me of how the Rabbis in Jesus day made reading the Word so complex that the people thought they had to depend on a Rabbi to understand it properly.

 

[Shasta]

Nanja

Correct!

Shasta



The assumption is that it is an unregenerate man trying to attain salvation. The scriptures I cited were not about "natural men trying to earn salvation."



Now you need to define what you mean by "the carnal mind" When I asked your buddy 57 to define it he arrogantly refused saying he was not my "lackey"



Those who stat abiding in the vine may not continue to do so. Abiding means to "continue" and "remain" in which is an ongoing choice we must make. This is clear in the passage that deals with abiding:

6 If anyone does not remain (continue, abide) in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned (John 15:6).

Again I never made that claim. I hope you are not suggesting that Paul or Jesus is saying that. I was quoting their words and, instead of answering that you have diverted the discussion from obedience of faith to meritorious works

I never quoted Calvin, I quoted the scriptures!

Well, I am glad we both agree that meritorious works cannot earn salvation for us. I never thought it could. I was saved when the Holy Spirit's conviction showed me that I was not good and it was deeper than any sin I committed. Whatever I have overcome in life I have done through weakness. "For when I am weak the power of God rests upon me." I am also gratified that you do not hold to a slavish devotion to John Calvin whose actions prove him to be unworthy of anyone's loyalty. Although Luther fomented hatred for the Jews at the end of his life at least he was honest enough to say "they think I am a fixed star when I am only a wandering planet."

 

[Angel4Truth]

Anyone that believes that they must be saved to get saved, has already proved that they are one french fry short of a happy meal. :kookoo:

You don't understand it because you deny the Omniscience of God even though His word says it clearly:

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will

if God predestinated anyone to heaven or to hell before the foundation of the world, that would make him unjust.

How would it make Him unjust, for knowing what we will do beforehand?

The problem here is yours, scripture clearly states that is exactly what He does.

You tell us what this means- break it down since you deny its clear language:

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms. 4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will

So, you think that you are one of the special chosen ones?

Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. This means that salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. Salvation is a free gift from God, Romans 5:15-18.

God has chosen all of humanity in Jesus Christ. Jesus is God's new Adam and our new humanity. God does not impose salvation on anyone, if he did he would be unjust.

yes, all who are saved are chosen, the bible is clear on it.

Offered and provided are not one and the same, do you actually believe all people ever, will receive eternal life?

Better inform Him that He lied here:
Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Matthew 22:14 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

And here:
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
And here:

John 15:16
"You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.



And you just contradicted yourself.

If you believe that God chooses "Some Certain Persons" to be saved and damns the rest to hell, then you must also believe that God is unjust.

You keep saying that, yet you wont answer my questions to show me an error you think i have- i dont believe God unjust at all and i asked you how you arrived at that in an earlier post that you keep ignoring.

Do you believe all men forever are saved?

If not, then you believe also that some people will be saved, and the rest end up in hell.

Please go back and read my posts to you, and actually address them. That is what a conversation is.

If you want to teach me something, go back and break down the verse i gave you and tell me what it means, since you dont think it means what it says.

It is not my place to teach you the truth, that is the work of the Holy Spirit.

Once again you completely ignored all the questions and verses ive offered.

It IS your place to answer me:

1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to articulate a defense to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But respond with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who slander you will be put to shame by your good behavior in Christ.

Why are you on a message board when you refuse to discuss anything?

I answered your post. You didn't like the answer.

To believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born is to confess that God is unjust.

If God knows who will accept Christ and who will not that makes him even more unjust. This means that God knows who will reject his Son, but goes ahead and gives them life so that he can damn them to hell.

It is not possible for anyone that believes this about God to be saved.

You haven't answered at all, and i had even posted the entire conversation, yet you keep ignoring what you know you cant answer because scripture doesn't support you.

You have to limit Gods power, because it messes with your view, hint: change your view to match His word.

Ive asked several times, and others have seen it, why is is unjust for God to do anything? Under what authority would He be unjust, yours? Also HOW - ive asked it again and again, and you lie and say you answered, but you havent and you are exposing your lack of answer to that to everyone.

Let me know when you can actually back your position and let me know how and why and under what criteria God is unjust, because He grants life to the lost based on nothing that they do.

Also how is His Omniscience, unjust?

Hebrews 4:13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Psalm 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’


How can the maker of all and creator of it all and the creator of what is just, be unjust?
Daniel 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”