Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

[Robert Pate]

If the foundation of your doctrine is false then everything that you build on that foundation will be false also.

The Foundation of Calvinism is "Predestination". There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible about anyone being predestinated to either heaven or to hell. It is a false doctrine that evolved out of the twisted mind of a heretic back in the mid 1500's by the name of John Calvin.

The apostles and the early church built their foundation (Faith) on Jesus Christ and his Gospel, not on a man conceived doctrine of predestination.

"For no other foundation can man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" 1 Corinthians 3:11.

To teach that you must already be saved to get saved is an insult to human intellect. That is the same as saying that before you buy a car you must already own it. If you already own it why would you need to buy it? If you are already saved why would you need to get saved again?

This is what happens when you build doctrine on false prepositions such as predestinationism. You wind up with another false doctrine like "You must already be saved to be saved".

 

[Nick M]

For all their claims that we misrepresent them, they all agree with nang who said she believes because God made her believe.

Making the cross of no effect.

 

[musterion]

Election encompasses everything in Calvinism - salvation, justification, sanctification - yet no person can know it is true of himself.

 

[Robert Pate]

For all their claims that we misrepresent them, they all agree with nang who said she believes because God made her believe.

Making the cross of no effect.

She never mentions the Gospel or justification by faith. What she believes is false and is not biblical.

 

[jamie]

This is what happens when you build doctrine on false prepositions...

What is a false preposition?

 

[OCTOBER23]

Was JESUS predestined to Enter heaven ????

 

[Robert Pate]

What is a false preposition?

Good question.

"In some languages, a word as by, for, from, functioning to indicate the relation of a substance."

Did that help you?

 

[Robert Pate]

Was JESUS predestined to Enter heaven ????

No, Jesus was always in heaven, Colossians 1:17.

 

[jamie]

Good question.

"In some languages, a word as by, for, from, functioning to indicate the relation of a substance."

Did that help you?

I don't believe any of those are false prepositions. Can you give an example of a false preposition?

"This is what happens when you build doctrine on false prepositions..." (Pate)

I would like to avoid those false prepositions.

 

[Robert Pate]

I don't believe any of those are false prepositions. Can you give an example of a false preposition?

"This is what happens when you build doctrine on false prepositions..." (Pate)

I would like to avoid those false prepositions.

My wife said that I used the wrong word. She got strait A's in English when she was in school.

 

[Lon]

For all their claims that we misrepresent them, they all agree with nang who said she believes because God made her believe.

Making the cross of no effect.

Walk me through this a bit:

Did you save yourself? ("No," I already know this and count you a brother in Christ)

Did Christ save you? ("Yes")

How is it, then, that you were saved when 'you' came to Christ, if Christ saved you and not the other way around?


The only thing I'm looking for is that God made the first move, and I'm sure you also agree with that. When it comes to the rest, we are talking about the order of things. We know that God 'draws' us to Him. The Calvinist is really latching onto those scriptures and that language and saying "Monergism" -All Christ Our Lord Savior God "Synergism" is rather - ""I had to do something, maybe negligible, but something-at least make a choice to believe and trust Him."

For me, I keep thinking Saul (Paul) didn't have much choice. God struck him blind. If he was ever going to see again, he didn't have much choice. Maybe enough that you'd call it 'synergistic' at that point.

Mom sent me to church where God ensured I heard the gospel. These were all things beyond my control as a kid. I suppose blurting out "I need Jesus" was my choice, but it was like being led to the answer the whole way that day. If we never see eye to eye, I'm okay, just trying to give perspective on how I believe I came to Christ. Yes, I asked for Him but I felt prompted the whole way, like the Holy Spirit was there setting that meeting up ahead of me and leading me right to Him.

In Him,

Lon

 

[Robert Pate]

Walk me through this a bit:

Did you save yourself? ("No," I already know this and count you a brother in Christ)

Did Christ save you? ("Yes")

How is it, then, that you were saved when 'you' came to Christ, if Christ saved you and not the other way around?


The only thing I'm looking for is that God made the first move, and I'm sure you also agree with that. When it comes to the rest, we are talking about the order of things. We know that God 'draws' us to Him. The Calvinist is really latching onto those scriptures and that language and saying "Monergism" -All Christ Our Lord Savior God "Synergism" is rather - ""I had to do something, maybe negligible, but something-at least make a choice to believe and trust Him."

For me, I keep thinking Saul (Paul) didn't have much choice. God struck him blind. If he was ever going to see again, he didn't have much choice. Maybe enough that you'd call it 'synergistic' at that point.

Mom sent me to church where God ensured I heard the gospel. These were all things beyond my control as a kid. I suppose blurting out "I need Jesus" was my choice, but it was like being led to the answer the whole way that day. If we never see eye to eye, I'm okay, just trying to give perspective on how I believe I came to Christ. Yes, I asked for Him but I felt prompted the whole way, like the Holy Spirit was there setting that meeting up ahead of me and leading me right to Him.

In Him,

Lon

The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15. If that is not enough there is the witness of creation.

Of course you were prompted the whole way. If you had not answered the call you could have been lost. The Holy Spirit would have eventually given up on you.

 

[Nick M]

Walk me through this a bit:


In Him,

Lon

No problem. I will go through it after you see her claim.

Yes. In fact, until one is born again from above, they cannot comprehend ("see") the kingdom (John 3:3) or respond to the gospel. (I Corinthians 2:11-14)

Nang

The only souls who will believe, are those saints born again by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

I do NOT believe the saving grace of God; nor the Covenants of Grace were, or are, common to all men.

Multitudes of persons have died in their sins without ever hearing the gospel truth of God, nor even the name of Jesus Christ. This according to the will of God.

Pretty cut and dry if you ask me.

 

[glorydaz]

The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15. If that is not enough there is the witness of creation.

Of course you were prompted the whole way. If you had not answered the call you could have been lost. The Holy Spirit would have eventually given up on you.

That reminds me of this verse...

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!​

There are simply some who WILL NOT be gathered. It isn't that they could not come, but they refuse to come.

 

[nikolai_42]

That reminds me of this verse...

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!​

There are simply some who WILL NOT be gathered. It isn't that they could not come, but they refuse to come.

Interesting thing about that verse...

Who is Jesus talking to? Who would He have gathered together? Who would not? Not all the same entity (or group of people). He's talking to Jerusalem (the religious leaders)...He would have gathered the children (the general people)...but the leaders "...would not."

EDIT : Alternatively, you could have Him speaking to the city in a spiritual sense...but there is still a distinction between Jerusalem and her children.

 

[Robert Pate]

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.

Nanja is in direct conflict with the apostle Paul.

According to Nanja faith just comes, no Gospel needed.

According to Nanja there is no Holy Spirit in the Gospel. You just get the Holy Spirit without hearing or believing anything.

And then she professes to be a Christian.

 

[Lon]

No problem. I will go through it after you see her claim.

Pretty cut and dry if you ask me.

Gotcha. I am NOT double-pred.

Thank you.

 

[Nick M]

John 12

32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

 

[beloved57]

If the foundation of your doctrine is false then everything that you build on that foundation will be false also.

The Foundation of Calvinism is "Predestination". There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible about anyone being predestinated to either heaven or to hell. It is a false doctrine that evolved out of the twisted mind of a heretic back in the mid 1500's by the name of John Calvin.

The apostles and the early church built their foundation (Faith) on Jesus Christ and his Gospel, not on a man conceived doctrine of predestination.

"For no other foundation can man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" 1 Corinthians 3:11.

To teach that you must already be saved to get saved is an insult to human intellect. That is the same as saying that before you buy a car you must already own it. If you already own it why would you need to buy it? If you are already saved why would you need to get saved again?

This is what happens when you build doctrine on false prepositions such as predestinationism. You wind up with another false doctrine like "You must already be saved to be saved".

To teach that some for whom Christ died can die in their sins in unbelief is a insult to the Blood of Christ!

 

[beloved57]

The Holy Spirit is in the world calling all to come to Christ, Hebrews 3:15. If that is not enough there is the witness of creation.

Of course you were prompted the whole way. If you had not answered the call you could have been lost. The Holy Spirit would have eventually given up on you.

False statements, them God calls are Justified Rom 8:30 !