Calvinism: Imputed Death?

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
In James 1:15, he describes the havoc that desire can wreak in the spiritual life. James metaphorically pictures desire as conceiving and giving birth to sin. And sin, once in existence, if it becomes full-grown, produces death.

James implies that temptation, in and of itself, is not sinful. Only when desire "conceives"—is allowed to produce offspring—does sin come into being. Here the metaphor James is using reaches its final stage stage: a person is enticed by lust, lust then gives birth to sin, which in turn gives birth to death.

Such is a fine description of the first sin of Adam in the Garden and that of all sin. But, given that Adam was our federal representative, and when he first sinned (the original sin, not all his other sins), we all sinned in Adam, just as if we were really there with him and sinning along with him. By one man, death came to all men.

According to the following quote from the website of R.C. Sproul the death which Adam suffered when he first sinned was a "spiritual" death:

"When God created Adam, He entered into a covenant with him. In this covenant, God tested Adam’s love and obedience by forbidding him to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He threatened Adam with death if he disobeyed, saying, “in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (Gen. 2:17). But Adam and Eve would not heed God; they rebelled and ate the fruit. At that moment they died, and all who descend from them by ordinary generation suffer that penalty as well...In the first place, Adam died spiritually, and all those who descend from him by ordinary generation suffer the same death" (Joseph Pipa Jr, Faces of Death, Ligonier Ministries).​

So is the following in "bold" speaking about spiritual death?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Besides that, is the death referred to here also speaking of a "spiritual" death?:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away" (2 Cor.3:6-7).​

Thanks!
 
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john w

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Dispensationalists have never developed a formal confession of faith,
Clavinists/Calvinists have developed a formal confession of faith, and it is their church Statement of Faith, that they believe, after being "zapped" so that they can believe, with the "spirit" of the devil, and rely on their SOF, rejecting scripture's testimony

So there.



for they cannot agree amongst themselves or be bothered to come to consensus with their numerous and various beliefs. (TOL is a prime example of their bickerings and failure of their many factions, to agree with each other!)

Thus, bah, wicked Nag, on record, asserts that consensus, agreement, determines veracity, with her now own "belief," based upon the above, that:

1. Christianity is false, as Christians cannot agree amongst themselves or be bothered to come to consensus with their numerous and various beliefs, witness the hundreds of denoninations:

A Muslim, Jew, Hare Krishna....to Nag:


Christianity is false, as Christians cannot agree amongst themselves or be bothered to come to consensus with their numerous and various beliefs, witness the hundreds of denominations.


Nag: Right on, "brother!"


2. She talks like a Catholic, as not only does Calvinism mimick Catholicism, being a subtil form of works-based "salvation," she learned what Catholics say to Protestants, from them...

A Catholic, to Nag:

Protestantism is false, as Protestants cannot agree amongst themselves or be bothered to come to consensus with their numerous and various beliefs, witness the hundreds of denoninations.


Nag: Right on, Catholic brother!!! Ima comin' home to Rome!!!!!!


Reformers have held to strong, biblical agreement in the faith of Jesus Christ, for 500 years, through the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the Three Forms of Unity (the Canons of Dordt, the Heidelberg Confession, and the Belgic Confession).

Catholics, Muslims,JW's, Mormons....say that, you wicked drone. And?



Nag is on record, by her "argument:"

Christianity is false, and her Catholicism is exposed.
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Christianity is false, as Christians cannot agree amongst themselves or be bothered to come to consensus with their numerous and various beliefs, witness the hundreds of denominations.

Not all who claim to be "Christian" are Christians . . .

Reformers believe in one, absolute Truth, which their confessions and creeds spell out, according to Holy Scripture.

There is consensus amongst them due to this fact.

Where there are divisions and differing views, resulting in various denominations holding different beliefs, all while claiming "Christianity;" it is due to the lack of holding to and teaching absolutism . . which instead produces humanistic relativism and many untruths.
 

john w

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Not all who claim to be "Christian" are Christians . . .

Reformers believe in one, absolute Truth, which their confessions and creeds spell out, according to Holy Scripture.

There is consensus amongst them due to this fact.

Where there are divisions and differing views, resulting in various denominations holding different beliefs, all while claiming "Christianity;" it is due to the lack of holding to and teaching absolutism . . which instead produces humanistic relativism and many untruths.

Quite irrelevant to your "argument," as you assert, on record, that Christianity is false.

Christianity is false, according to you, as Christians cannot agree amongst themselves or be bothered to come to consensus with their numerous and various beliefs, witness the hundreds of denominations.


Your "argument:"
they cannot agree amongst themselves or be bothered to come to consensus with their numerous and various beliefs. (TOL is a prime example of their bickerings and failure of their many factions, to agree with each other!)


You were caught, evil Nag-on record, for all of TOL to witness, and none of your spin, tap dance with a top hat and white cane can change your assessment that Christianity ifs false.

When you are in a ditch, stop digging. Fold.


Reformers believe in one, absolute Truth, which their confessions and creeds spell out, according to Holy Scripture.

No, they don't-you made that up, clown. And, even if they did, it is irrelevant to your above argument.

Islam proponents can say that they "believe in one, absolute Truth, which their confessions and creeds spell out, according to the Koran. " And?

That "consensus" does not mean veracity, fool.
 

john w

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Don't pile your ungodly conclusions upon me . . .

Stuff your "bah"-yes, you did:
...they cannot agree amongst themselves or be bothered to come to consensus with their numerous and various beliefs. (TOL is a prime example of their bickerings and failure of their many factions, to agree with each other!)

=consensus, "agreement," determines veracity.


A Muslim to you:

Christians cannot agree amongst themselves or be bothered to come to consensus with their numerous and various beliefs. The hundreds of denominations, is a prime example of their bickerings and failure of their many factions, to agree with each other!!!


You: Right on, brother Mohammed!!!


You ungodly, vile Calvinist con artist, closet Catholic, as you talk like them.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
In James 1:15, he describes the havoc that desire can wreak in the spiritual life. James metaphorically pictures desire as conceiving and giving birth to sin. And sin, once in existence, if it becomes full-grown, produces death.

James implies that temptation, in and of itself, is not sinful. Only when desire "conceives"—is allowed to produce offspring—does sin come into being. Here the metaphor James is using reaches its final stage stage: a person is enticed by lust, lust then gives birth to sin, which in turn gives birth to death.

Such is a fine description of the first sin of Adam in the Garden and that of all sin. But, given that Adam was our federal representative, and when he first sinned (the original sin, not all his other sins), we all sinned in Adam, just as if we were really there with him and sinning along with him. By one man, death came to all men.

According to the following quote from the website of R.C. Sproul the death which Adam suffered when he first sinned was a "spiritual" death:

"When God created Adam, He entered into a covenant with him. In this covenant, God tested Adam’s love and obedience by forbidding him to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He threatened Adam with death if he disobeyed, saying, “in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (Gen. 2:17). But Adam and Eve would not heed God; they rebelled and ate the fruit. At that moment they died, and all who descend from them by ordinary generation suffer that penalty as well...In the first place, Adam died spiritually, and all those who descend from him by ordinary generation suffer the same death" (Joseph Pipa Jr, Faces of Death, Ligonier Ministries).​

So is the following in "bold" speaking about spiritual death?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Besides that, is the death referred to here also speaking of a "spiritual" death?:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away" (2 Cor.3:6-7).​

Thanks!
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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The Spiritual, Physical, and Judicial Death of Man

The Spiritual, Physical, and Judicial Death of Man

According to the following quote from the website of R.C. Sproul the death which Adam suffered when he first sinned was a "spiritual" death:
"When God created Adam, He entered into a covenant with him. In this covenant, God tested Adam’s love and obedience by forbidding him to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He threatened Adam with death if he disobeyed, saying, “in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die” (Gen. 2:17). But Adam and Eve would not heed God; they rebelled and ate the fruit. At that moment they died, and all who descend from them by ordinary generation suffer that penalty as well...In the first place, Adam died spiritually, and all those who descend from him by ordinary generation suffer the same death" (Joseph Pipa Jr, Faces of Death, Ligonier Ministries).​

So is the following in "bold" speaking about spiritual death?:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Besides that, is the death referred to here also speaking of a "spiritual" death?:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away" (2 Cor.3:6-7).​

Thanks!
Jerry, I saw this the first time you posted it. There is no need to keep repeating it. In the interest of those who are actually interested, I will respond one last time. You have a rude habit of not interacting directly with my responses. You apparently give them a quick read and just press onward with more posts, never directly dealing with what I have posted beforehand.

The partial Ligonier quote is just fine. I hope you actually read and thought about the entire excellent article, for example, yet from your questions, my hope is likely in vain given that the article answers you.

"In this summary of the miseries of sin, we find three types of death that are mentioned in Scripture: spiritual death, physical death, and judicial death."

"In the first place, Adam died spiritually, and all those who descend from him by ordinary generation suffer the same death. This is the death...refers to as “lost communion with God.”...Paul ...reminding us that we were born dead in trespasses and sins..."

"Spiritual death is the root cause of the second consequence of the fall, physical death."

"The third type of death is judicial. As guilty sinners (we are guilty of Adam’s first sin and all our own sins, Rom. 5:12), we are liable to the punishment of sin."

Romans 5:12 speaks to the spiritual, physical, and judicial death of man.

In 2 Cor 3:6-7 the law is called the ministry of death, for when men are instructed as to their duty, and hear it declared, that all who do not render satisfaction to the justice of God are cursed, (Deuteronomy 27:26) they are convicted, as under sentence of sin and death. Again in view here is the spiritual, physical, and judicial death of man.

AMR
 

Crucible

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It does no good to say you depend upon Holy Scripture alone, if you do not bother to learn what, or believe in, all it actually reveals regarding the Law and Will of God.

Especially when those scriptures were canonized by the same people they call heretics.

How much sense does that make :chuckle:

They forget also that the Spirit is active in men, and not just guiding hand and pen.

Neither Calvin or Luther spoke against oral tradition.
If the Scriptures accepted them, that is- you can't say that about the Catholic Church for a damn second :rolleyes:
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Romans 5:12 speaks to the spiritual, physical, and judicial death of man.

Since you admit that the verse is referring to at least a "spiritual death" then look at what is said there:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Here can see that "spiritual" death passed to all men because all men have sinned. Since a man has to be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually then that means that all men are not spiritually dead until they sin.

They do not emerge from the womb spiritually dead.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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From One Man, Adam, Sin Passed Upon All Men

From One Man, Adam, Sin Passed Upon All Men

Since you admit that the verse is referring to at least a "spiritual death" then look at what is said there:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

Here can see that "spiritual" death passed to all men because all men have sinned. Since a man has to be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually then that means that all men are not spiritually dead until they sin.

They do not emerge from the womb spiritually dead.
The one man in question here is Adam. All are dead in Adam. All have sinned in Adam just as if we were there with Adam in the Garden when he sinned. Adam indeed was alive spiritually when created, able to sin or not to sin. Adam, our federal representative, sinned and plunged all his progeny (you, me, all) into corruption and sin. The fact that all who are born sin establishes the corruption that has been passed along to us all. We are sinners from birth. Born spiritually dead and dying. We are not born morally neutral and become sinners by sinning.

Adam is whole point of Romans 5:12. You have misunderstood the verse. You have ignored much of what I have provided to you in many responses. You continue to press onward as if I have ignored you and not provided ample material to consider and actually discuss. This whole discussion begins and ends with the proper understanding of the effects of the fall of Adam. Walk through my careful explanation of this. Provide some reasonable responses to my actual discussion in a point-by-point method that you hope will make your arguments. Just don't tee up more cherry-picked verses with your usual "Yeah, but..." attached thereto. Demonstrate that you can engage directly with content offered. Failing to do so tells me you just want to waste my time, when I have offered it up out of respect for the topic at hand.


AMR
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The one man in question here is Adam. All are dead in Adam.

All men die "physically" as a result of Adam's sin (Gen.3:22-24). But I have demonstrated that all men die "spiritually" as a result of their own sin:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

All have sinned in Adam just as if we were there with Adam in the Garden when he sinned.

Romans 5:12 does not say that. Do you think that you can just willy-nilly edit the Scriptures to make them fit your preconceived ideas? Evidently you do. When we look at the following passage we can see that spiritual death results when a person sins:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away" (2 Cor.3:6-7).​

You even admit that this passage is referring to "spiritual" death so we can know beyond any doubt that a person dies spiritually because of his own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin. That confirms what I said about the meaning of this verse:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

This means that since a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin then he must have been alive spiritually before he died spiritually. Therefore, common sense dictates that no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead, as you imagine.

Instead of believing Romans 5:12 as IT IS WRITTEN you must pervert what is said there by adding something that is not said--that "all have sinned in Adam."

And then you have the gall to say that your beliefs in this matter are supported by the Scriptures. In fact, your beliefs are based on an edited version of the Bible.

Demonstrate that you can engage directly with content offered. Failing to do so tells me you just want to waste my time, when I have offered it up out of respect for the topic at hand.

I have done exactly that and I did not adopt your disgusting method of adding to Paul's words things which he never said. For my interpretation of what is said in the passage under discussion please go to post #11 on page #1 on this thread.

In the meantime please address what I said about Romans 5:12 (without your edit of Paul's words) and what is said at 2 Corinthians 3:6-7.

Thanks!
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Romans 5 Is About Imputation Concerning Adam and Our Lord

Romans 5 Is About Imputation Concerning Adam and Our Lord

The one man in question here is Adam. All are dead in Adam. All have sinned in Adam just as if we were there with Adam in the Garden when he sinned. Adam indeed was alive spiritually when created, able to sin or not to sin. Adam, our federal representative, sinned and plunged all his progeny (you, me, all) into corruption and sin. The fact that all who are born sin establishes the corruption that has been passed along to us all. We are sinners from birth. Born spiritually dead and dying. We are not born morally neutral and become sinners by sinning.


Romans 5:12 does not say that. Do you think that you can just willy-nilly edit the Scriptures to make them fit your preconceived ideas?
You cannot appeal to Romans 5:12. It is part of a longer passage that includes Romans 5:13-20. Read it. One the one hand there is the one man, Adam, through which all are made sinners. On the other hand there is the other Man, Our Lord, through which all are made alive.

There is no place in Scripture where the doctrine of imputation is set forth more clearly and centrally than in Romans 5. There is no other way to make sense of the way in which Paul says that we sinned in Adam than to understand this assertion putatively, that is, we sinned in Adam by imputation.

Paul labors the point that Adam’s sin is reckoned and transferred, that is, imputed, to the entire human race. We know Paul is speaking about imputation here because he spends time drawing the remarkable contrast that just as one man’s offense and sin were reckoned to the entire human race, so another Man’s righteousness, in a similar manner, was imputed to all who believe. The parallel between the first and the second Adam in Romans 5 stands. The imputation of the sin of the one and the imputation of the righteousness of the Other, stands. If there is no imputation, then there is no justification by faith alone.

Paul in Romans 5 is not speaking about man's actual sin after Adam. For if every person contracts his own guilt by becoming a sinner by sinning, then one wonders why Paul bothers to form a comparison between Adam and Christ. Surely you do not intend to imply that we contract our own righteousness by being righteous? I hope not. The symmetry of Paul's comparison between fallen Adam's innate corruption and Our Lord innate righteousness, and the respective imputations of sin or righteousness upon man, is inescapable. Given what Paul has actually written, comparing Adam and Our Lord, it then follows that our innate and hereditary depravity and our Lord's innate and hereditary righteousness, imputed to us, is what is being referred to in Romans 5.

By focusing upon a single verse lifted from its entire context, you have twisted Paul's own words to mean something they cannot possibly mean. Clearly you do not understand imputation as relates to original sin or to justification.

Dig deeper:

Spoiler

IMPUTATION

A forensic term that denotes the reckoning or placing to a person’s account the merit or guilt that belongs to him on the basis of his personal performance or of that of his federal head. While impute is used in Scripture to express the idea of receiving the just reward of our deeds (Lev. 7:18; 17:4; 2 Sam. 19:19), imputation as a theological term normally carries one of two meanings:

Imputation of Adam’s Sin

First, it describes the transmission of the guilt of Adam’s first sin to his descendants. It is imputed, or reckoned, to them; i.e., it is laid to their account. Paul’s statement is unambiguous: “By one man’s disobedience many were made [constituted] sinners” (Rom. 5:19). Some Reformed theologians ground the imputation of Adam’s sin in the real involvement of all his posterity in his sin, because of the specific unity of the race in him. Shedd strongly advocates this view in his Dogmatic Theology. Others—e.g., Charles and A. A. Hodge, and Louis Berkhof—refer all to the federal headship of Adam. The Westminster Standards emphasize that Adam is both the federal head and the root of all his posterity. Both parties accept that this is so. Thus, the dispute is not whether Adam’s federal headship is the ground of the imputation of his first sin to us, but whether that federal headship rests solely on a divine constitution—i.e., because God appointed it—or on the fact that God made him the actual root of the race and gave the race a real specific unity in him.

The theory of mediate imputation has never gained acceptance in orthodox expressions of the Reformed Faith. It is subversive to the entire concept of the imputation of Adam’s sin upon which Paul grounds his exposition of justification by virtue of union with Christ our righteousness (Rom. 5:12–19; 1 Cor. 15:22).

Paul’s statement of the imputation of Adam’s sin to his posterity is stark: “By [through] one man sin entered into the world, and death by [through] sin; so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned” (Rom. 5:12). In the AV the clause “for all have sinned” may give the impression that Paul’s argument is that all die like Adam because all, like him, have sinned. But this is not the case. His statement is, “Death passed upon all humanity inasmuch as all sinned.He teaches that all participated in Adam’s sin and that both the guilt and the penalty of that sin were transmitted to them. However we explain the mode of that participation—whether on purely federal or on traducianist-federal grounds—the fact of it stands as a fundamental of the Christian revelation. As the Shorter Catechism says, “The covenant [of works] being made with Adam, not only for himself, but for his posterity, all mankind, descending from him by ordinary generation, sinned in him, and fell with him, in his first transgression” (Question 16, emphasis added.)

Imputation of our Sin to Christ and of His Righteousness to Us

Second, imputation has a second major use in Scripture. It describes the act of God in visiting the guilt of believers on Christ and of conferring the righteousness of Christ upon believers. In this sense

“imputation is an act of God as sovereign judge, at once judicial and sovereign, whereby He—(1). Makes the guilt, legal responsibility of our sins, really Christ’s, and punishes them in Him, Isa. 53:6; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21; and (2). Makes the merit, legal rights of Christ’s righteousness, ours, and then treats us as persons legally invested with all those rights, Rom. 4:6; 10:4; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9. As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness. The transfer is only of guilt from us to Him, and of merit from Him to us. He justly suffered the punishment due to our sins, and we justly receive the rewards due to His righteousness, 1 John 1:8, 9”
(A. A. Hodge, Outlines of Theology, chap. 30, Q. 15).


The fact of this imputation is inescapable: “By the obedience of one [Christ] shall many be made righteous” (Rom. 5:19). The ground of it is the real, vital, personal, spiritual and federal union of Christ with His people. It is indispensable to the biblical doctrine of justification. Without it, we fail to do justice to Paul’s teaching, and we cannot lead believers into the comfort that the gospel holds out to them. That comfort is of a perfect legal release from guilt and of a perfect legal righteousness that establishes a secure standing before God and His law on the basis of a perfect obedience outside of their own subjective experience.

The double imputation of our sin to Christ and of His righteousness to us is clearly laid down in 2 Cor. 5:21: “He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” Hugh Martin’s paraphrase catches the meaning precisely: “God made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, who knew no righteousness, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” That Paul means us to understand a judicial act of imputation is clear. God did not make Christ personally a sinner. The reference is not to Christ’s subjective experience. He was as personally sinless and impeccable when He was bearing our sins on the cross as He had ever been. What Paul is describing is God’s act of reckoning our sin to Christ so as to make Him legally liable for it and all its consequences. Similarly, while believers are not by any means righteous in their subjective experience, God reckons to them the full merit of Christ’s obedience in life and death (Rom. 5:18, 19). That righteousness, not any attained virtue, is the ground of a believer’s acceptance with God.
Source: Cairns, A. (2002). Dictionary of Theological Terms (pp. 225–226). Belfast; Greenville, SC: Ambassador Emerald International.


Thus endeth the instruction.

No doubt you may now have the last word. As far as I am concerned, I have finished my long suffering efforts to correct you on many matters of the faith. I am sure you recall my efforts to disabuse you of your notion that Our Lord has always existed as a man, even before the actual incarnation. I will not continue to interact with you from this point onward.

AMR
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You cannot appeal to Romans 5:12.

Of course I can. You answered absolutely NOTHING about what I said about the verse:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

You admit that the "death" referred to in the "bolded" part is speaking about "spiritual" death. So we can understand that spiritual death came unto all men because all have sinned. In order to die spiritually a person must first be spiritually alive. Therefore, when a person comes out of the womb he is spiritually alive.

Again, let us look at the following verse:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away"
(2 Cor.3:6-7).​

You admit that this passage is referring to "spiritual" death so we can know beyond any doubt that a person dies spiritually because of his own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin. After all, a person must be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually. Therefore, a person comes out of the womb spiritually alive and not spiritually dead, as the Calvinists teach.

Of course you did not even say one word about what is said by Paul at 2 Corinthians 3:6-7 and I can understand why. After all, what could you possibly say that would persuade anyone to believe that a person does not die spiriually as a result of his own sin?

You can talk until you are blue in the face but unless you can explain why the two passages which I quoted are not saying that a person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin then you are merely spinning your wheels.

No doubt you may have the last word. I have finished my efforts to correct you. I will not continue to do so from this point onwards.

I corrected you. And you prove that put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures actually say. You prove that you are unable to deal with the Scriptures AS THEY ARE WRITTEN! You must add words to what Paul said at Romans 5:12 in order to make what he said match your discredited teaching.
 

john w

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Proverbs 19:5

Matt 7:1

Psalm 15:3

I Cor 13:6

1 Peter 4:8

Romans 1:29-30



Quite impressive!!! You cite random verses, and Think, "Wala, I showed him, and the TOL audience is stunned by my brilliance!!"

Genesis-Revelation

So there- I just one upped you. Fun!

It is a violation of the ninth commandment to bear false witness against another.

I agree, wolf, devil child. And?
 

Eagles Wings

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Quite impressive!!! You cite random verses, and Think, "Wala, I showed him, and the TOL audience is stunned by my brilliance!!"

Genesis-Revelation

So there- I just one upped you. Fun!



I agree, wolf, devil child. And?
This poster continues to harass God's saints.

This poster will be reported each time he bears false witness and slanders.

Hopefully the staff of TOL will discipline this poster.
 
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Crucible

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"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).

It's the dogma of 'Original Sin'.

And
It's as fundamental to Christianity as the Trinity.

I'm not surprised you would so openly take issue with it, being that you're all really Pelagian in your philosophy which is a rejection of Original Sin.
 
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