Calvinism.....Arminianism??

[GodFearingPerson]

Which one is Biblical and which isn't?

 

[Samstarrett]

I am not sure that Arminianism is the the Biblical worldview, and not Universalism, though I believe the burden of proof is now squarely on the shoulders of the Universalist. I, can, however, say with absolute conviction that both the Bible and man's inherent moral intuition, or conscience(the "law written on our hearts" of Rom 2:15) are in direct contradiction to Calvinism.

Here are just a few claims Calvinism makes that the Bible directly refutes.

John Calvin: God commanded that most of mankind should perish.
Bible: God is not willing that ANY should perish.(2 Peter 3:9)

John Calvin: God only loves the elect, and Jesus only died for the elect("elect" here being defined as the group God chose, sovereignly, and before the universe was made, to FORCE to believe in Him.)

Bible: God loves the WHOLE world, and Jesus died for the whole world.(John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, Heb 2:9,2 Corinthians 5:14-15).

John Calvin: Irresistible Grace--man is a robot. If left to himself, he can do nothing but sin. If called by God, he cannot reject God's grace. Thus, man has no freewill.

Bible: God gave man freewill--otherwise God is the author of sin!(Deuteronomy 30:15-18, Josh 24:15, Jn 15:6-7; 3:16, etc.) If God gives man no freewill choice, then God authored man's sin! Thus, God would be better off drowning in the sea with a millstone tied about his neck!(Matt. 18:6)
So what gives? Surely God is not the author of sin, as he must be according to Calvinism!

And finally,

John Calvin: Perseverance of the saints: Not one believer will EVER fall away!
Bible: Believers can and do fall away when they do not persevere! (Mk. 4:16, Lk. 8:13)

The issue is clear. Choose for yourself this day whom you will serve: The Bible's loving, compassionate God, or Calvin's Insecure Sadistic Lottery Operator in the Sky!

 

[kwiemers77]

As a newbie, I am not familiar with the leanings of this group, but as I get better aquainted, I am sure I will find out.

As for Calvinism or Arminianism, I am most definintely Arminian, but isn't the devil in the details?:wave:

 

[godrulz]

As a newbie, I am not familiar with the leanings of this group, but as I get better aquainted, I am sure I will find out.

As for Calvinism or Arminianism, I am most definintely Arminian, but isn't the devil in the details?:wave:

The founders of this site lean to Open Theism, a more coherent, biblical free will theism than Arminianism. Calvinism/TULIP/determinism is held by a few here, but rejected by many on TOL.

My thread summarizing some contrasts of the views (depends which issue you are talking about):

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36231

(first 8 posts for main info...Molinism is another option, but confusing and inadequate)

 

[Yorzhik]

Which one is Biblical and which isn't?

For the details follow Godrulz' post. (thanks GR)

For a direct answer to you question: both Calvinism and Arminiumism are unbiblical.

 

[kwiemers77]

Thanks, godrulz, for that link. That explains much of what I was wondering about. I am really out of touch, having posted for the last 7 or 8 years exclusively on a forum made up of either Calvinists or Apostolic believers, and the fur flew, but after so much arguing, I am burnt out. I miss discussion, however. And learning.

 

[godrulz]

Thanks, godrulz, for that link. That explains much of what I was wondering about. I am really out of touch, having posted for the last 7 or 8 years exclusively on a forum made up of either Calvinists or Apostolic believers, and the fur flew, but after so much arguing, I am burnt out. I miss discussion, however. And learning.

Were the apostolic types Trinity deniers?

What is your leaning?

You may have not heard of controversial Open Theism, but after 30 years of studying it, I believe it is closest to being biblical.

 

[Lon]

Thanks, godrulz, for that link. That explains much of what I was wondering about. I am really out of touch, having posted for the last 7 or 8 years exclusively on a forum made up of either Calvinists or Apostolic believers, and the fur flew, but after so much arguing, I am burnt out. I miss discussion, however. And learning.

Try to at least get to page 8 where debate begins in substance, and what I believe is the meat of the discussion.

 

[kwiemers77]

Were the apostolic types Trinity deniers?

What is your leaning?

You may have not heard of controversial Open Theism, but after 30 years of studying it, I believe it is closest to being biblical.

The apostolics I am most familiar with are firm believers in the Trinity.

I was raised a Lutheran, got confused by Jehovah's Witnesses, got saved in a Pentecostal church, and returned to the Lutherans where I am currently fellowshipping. I know nothing of Open Theism, but am certainly going to check it out. Thanks, and I will read past page 8!

 

[Lon]

Thanks, and I will read past page 8!

 

[godrulz]

The apostolics I am most familiar with are firm believers in the Trinity.

I was raised a Lutheran, got confused by Jehovah's Witnesses, got saved in a Pentecostal church, and returned to the Lutherans where I am currently fellowshipping. I know nothing of Open Theism, but am certainly going to check it out. Thanks, and I will read past page 8!

Post 8, not page 8

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44292

I think you will like the above thread also (classical vs open theism).



www.opentheism.info (John Sander's site) (main page summarizes the view)

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

As a newbie, I am not familiar with the leanings of this group, but as I get better aquainted, I am sure I will find out.

As for Calvinism or Arminianism, I am most definintely Arminian, but isn't the devil in the details?:wave:

As you explore things, I recommend the following:

Beyond the Bounds


AMR

 

[godrulz]

As you explore things, I recommend the following:

Beyond the Bounds


AMR

I am still reading and enjoying it, despite needing a magnifying glass (small footnotes in book).

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I am still reading and enjoying it, despite needing a magnifying glass (small footnotes in book).

No doubt you are reading it as you have been Enyart's The Plot. i guess you will finish it in a few years, no? :squint:

Actually, given how superficial so many of your posts are, I wonder if the last time you actually read a book from cover to cover, versus using Amazon's "Peek Inside," was in seminary--where you were likely forced to read an entire book.

AMR

 

[godrulz]

No doubt you are reading it as you have been Enyart's The Plot. i guess you will finish it in a few years, no? :squint:

Actually, given how superficial so many of your posts are, I wonder if the last time you actually read a book from cover to cover, versus using Amazon's "Peek Inside," was in seminary--where you were likely forced to read an entire book.

AMR

I have just as many Open Theist or Pentecostal books partially read (as well as Francis Schaeffer's complete works half read) as I do your book or the Plot book. I have read many books cover to cover in my life and recently, but have too many on the go and not always time to sit down and study (vs skim)...nothing personal, Judge Dread.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

No doubt you are reading it as you have been Enyart's The Plot. i guess you will finish it in a few years, no? :squint:

Actually, given how superficial so many of your posts are, I wonder if the last time you actually read a book from cover to cover, versus using Amazon's "Peek Inside," was in seminary--where you were likely forced to read an entire book.

AMR

I have just as many Open Theist or Pentecostal books partially read (as well as Francis Schaeffer's complete works half read) as I do your book or the Plot book. I have read many books cover to cover in my life and recently, but have too many on the go and not always time to sit down and study (vs skim)...nothing personal, Judge Dread.

Q.E.D.

AMR

 

[penofareadywriter]

Thanks, godrulz, for that link. That explains much of what I was wondering about. I am really out of touch, having posted for the last 7 or 8 years exclusively on a forum made up of either Calvinists or Apostolic believers, and the fur flew, but after so much arguing, I am burnt out. I miss discussion, however. And learning.

As you explore things, I recommend the following:

Beyond the Bounds


AMR

Careful k.... what I have read of this book is discouraging to say the lest. They don't represent the open view corectly...but whats new for Calvys?

 

[assuranceagent]

Careful k.... what I have read of this book is discouraging to say the lest. They don't represent the open view corectly...but whats new for Calvys?

Says the pot of the kettle...

 

[penofareadywriter]

Says the pot of the kettle...

I am fine when people simply disagree with the OV..(they can be wrong if they want to...:second what is discouraging is when people like Piper continually misrepresent the open view over and over again. And to make it worse...acuse OV"s of heresy! It just bums me out...:rain:
How have you been broseph?:cheers:

 

[Lon]

Post 8, not page 8

I was referring to page 8, it is incidental that it happened to be me engaging.

Regarding your other recommend: AMR and RobE's posts there were substantial.