Calvinism and the word "WORLD"

Lon

Lon

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
You were supposed to seek Christ and his Gospel, instead, you got derailed and bought a lie called Calvinism, because it was about you. its not about you, its about Jesus Christ.
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:nono: Luke 19:10 You simply don't realize that if you are saved, Christ sought you. Can you name anything Christ did to save you (just you)?

I'm wondering how personal our God was involved in your salvation. Was it all pretty hands-off once the Lord Jesus Christ sat down at the right hand of the Father?

Calvinism believes in an incredibly personal salvation experience. I realize it cuts others out, as far as you understand Calvinism, but what about just you? Did the Lord Jesus Christ seek and save you? Can you explain that in any detail? Thanks -Lon
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Brother Ducky said:
In what way is Jesus the savior of the world and all mankind? Exactly what does that mean?
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In the same way that the whole world was in Adam when he was created by God. In his case the whole world was in his DNA so if we apply that to Christ there would be a spiritual counterpart that is mostly speculation if I tried to define it.
 
Brother Ducky

Brother Ducky

New member
Epoisses said:
In the same way that the whole world was in Adam when he was created by God. In his case the whole world was in his DNA so if we apply that to Christ there would be a spiritual counterpart that is mostly speculation if I tried to define it.
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Hmmm. Most would subscribe to the idea of original sin. Adam's fall had real effects on us.

Does the universal aspect of the second Adam have real effects on all people? If so, what?
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Brother Ducky said:
Hmmm. Most would subscribe to the idea of original sin. Adam's fall had real effects on us.

Does the universal aspect of the second Adam have real effects on all people? If so, what?
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Yea, the whole world is justified, sanctified and glorified in Christ. Every person you meet, every person you know and every person who has ever lived has an eternal inheritance in Christ. The gospel is God's appointed agency in conveying to lost men the good news of their redemption in Christ. The Calvinist gospel is a sick joke compared to the true one.
 
Brother Ducky

Brother Ducky

New member
Epoisses said:
Yea, the whole world is justified, sanctified and glorified in Christ. Every person you meet, every person you know and every person who has ever lived has an eternal inheritance in Christ. The gospel is God's appointed agency in conveying to lost men the good news of their redemption in Christ. The Calvinist gospel is a sick joke compared to the true one.
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Unless you are a Universalist, your first two sentences are meaningless.
 
Brother Ducky

Brother Ducky

New member
Epoisses said:
It's called universal or unlimited atonement - lying, deceiving Calvinist trash!!!

You know the exact opposite of your satanic limited atonement aka the bigot gospel.
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Still meaningless unless you are a Universalist. Unless you are a Universalist, you have people glorified going to hell.

Full of meaning if you are a Universalist, though. Wrong, but consistent.

Bigot gospel? New theological term?
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Brother Ducky said:
Still meaningless unless you are a Universalist. Unless you are a Universalist, you have people glorified going to hell.

Full of meaning if you are a Universalist, though. Wrong, but consistent.

Bigot gospel? New theological term?
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Your incompetent and don't know the meaning of the words. We're dealing with the atonement not who ends up in heaven or hell.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Brother Ducky said:
I did not know I had an incompetent.

And highly related to salvation. Especially when you have gone beyond atonement to glorification of all.

If one can be glorified and not saved, define glorification.
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Did Christ rise with a glorified body, yes or no? Still dealing with the atonement and what Christ accomplished with his life, death and resurrection. Not talking about the elect or the sheep or the goats or the reprobates.
 
Brother Ducky

Brother Ducky

New member
Epoisses said:
Did Christ rise with a glorified body, yes or no? Still dealing with the atonement and what Christ accomplished with his life, death and resurrection. Not talking about the elect or the sheep or the goats or the reprobates.
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OK, I'll play. Yes, Jesus rose with a glorified body.

So how does that relate to all humans being glorified?
 
steko

steko

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Robert Pate said:
The only ones that will receive a glorified body are those that are "In Christ".

"We shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is".
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:thumb:

Yes:

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
steko said:
:thumb:

Yes:

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
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I can't wait to get my new body. The one I have now is not doing well.
 
C

Charles94

New member
Robert Pate said:
Jesus did far more than just praying for the world...
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So, to be clear, you are openly denying the Jesus of the Bible who clearly REFUSED to pray for the world:

John17:9 “I do NOT PRAY FOR THE WORLD."

He did NOT pray that the world be protected from the Evil One. He did NOT pray that the world should come together as one. Seems odd that if His sacrifice was for every single person, His intercession was expressly limited. Still waiting for an explanation but you just seem to run back to your no-context prooftexts - maybe you have cut John17:9 out of your Bible with scissors?

Epoisses said:
It's called universal or unlimited atonement...
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"Universal" atonement sounds great until people notice that you've redefined "atonement" to merely mean "potential atonement" which is nothing more than a con game moving cups around. Your words don't have meaning. You teach of a "savior" who does not save and an "unlimited atonement" that does not atone for sins. Do you really pray "God, I thank you for saving and atoning for the sins of Judas and all those who rejected your Son in the past...and similarly for saving me and atoning for my sins..."? (Just seems like it can't be good for giving you much assurance.)

I notice you have run from any attempt to address John17:9, also.

The cross is where the sin problem was taken care of it had nothing to do with believers or unbelievers...
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Well, the Bible makes clear that God's wrath still abides on some - if Jesus is looking forward to His enemies being made His footstool, then their sin problem is still very much a problem.

Heb10:13-14...from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

The cross only accomplished something for those who are being sanctified in space and time. Until you can explain what that one offering accomplished for His enemies (and why He refused to pray for the world in John17:9), I really can't take you or your anathemas all that seriously.

Calvinists have a saying, "God is God and we are not." We don't know who will or won't receive the gospel. A nice suburban mom with a minivan might reject it and a war criminal might accept it and be saved. But your eagerness to make God seem nice requires you to deny that God declares the end from the beginning and accomplishes all that He desires - you re-create God in your limited and time-bound image so that you claim He has to hope for the best for every single person because He doesn't know the future. That is something the wicked would do. (Psa73:11)

Jesus gave Himself up for His sheep - He knows us by name. (John10:3,14-15) OTOH, Jesus taught that those who do not believe, refuse to believe because they are not of His sheep (John10:26) - you will answer to Him as to why you reverse His logic instead of believing His teaching...

(And since no one has quoted John Calvin yet so far as I can tell, it just makes you look like a lunatic for saying that anyone considers him a prophet. Jesus said if you loved Him, you'd obey Him...but bearing false witness doesn't seem to be the problem for you that it should be...)
 
T

Truster

New member
Charles94 said:
So, to be clear, you are openly denying the Jesus of the Bible who clearly REFUSED to pray for the world:

John17:9 “I do NOT PRAY FOR THE WORLD."

He did NOT pray that the world be protected from the Evil One. He did NOT pray that the world should come together as one. Seems odd that if His sacrifice was for every single person, His intercession was expressly limited. Still waiting for an explanation but you just seem to run back to your no-context prooftexts - maybe you have cut John17:9 out of your Bible with scissors?



"Universal" atonement sounds great until people notice that you've redefined "atonement" to merely mean "potential atonement" which is nothing more than a con game moving cups around. Your words don't have meaning. You teach of a "savior" who does not save and an "unlimited atonement" that does not atone for sins. Do you really pray "God, I thank you for saving and atoning for the sins of Judas and all those who rejected your Son in the past...and similarly for saving me and atoning for my sins..."? (Just seems like it can't be good for giving you much assurance.)

I notice you have run from any attempt to address John17:9, also.



Well, the Bible makes clear that God's wrath still abides on some - if Jesus is looking forward to His enemies being made His footstool, then their sin problem is still very much a problem.

Heb10:13-14...from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

The cross only accomplished something for those who are being sanctified in space and time. Until you can explain what that one offering accomplished for His enemies (and why He refused to pray for the world in John17:9), I really can't take you or your anathemas all that seriously.

Calvinists have a saying, "God is God and we are not." We don't know who will or won't receive the gospel. A nice suburban mom with a minivan might reject it and a war criminal might accept it and be saved. But your eagerness to make God seem nice requires you to deny that God declares the end from the beginning and accomplishes all that He desires - you re-create God in your limited and time-bound image so that you claim He has to hope for the best for every single person because He doesn't know the future. That is something the wicked would do. (Psa73:11)

Jesus gave Himself up for His sheep - He knows us by name. (John10:3,14-15) OTOH, Jesus taught that those who do not believe, refuse to believe because they are not of His sheep (John10:26) - you will answer to Him as to why you reverse His logic instead of believing His teaching...

(And since no one has quoted John Calvin yet so far as I can tell, it just makes you look like a lunatic for saying that anyone considers him a prophet. Jesus said if you loved Him, you'd obey Him...but bearing false witness doesn't seem to be the problem for you that it should be...)
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Well said, easily understood and amen.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Charles94 said:
"Universal" atonement sounds great until people notice that you've redefined "atonement" to merely mean "potential atonement" which is nothing more than a con game moving cups around. Your words don't have meaning. You teach of a "savior" who does not save and an "unlimited atonement" that does not atone for sins. Do you really pray "God, I thank you for saving and atoning for the sins of Judas and all those who rejected your Son in the past...and similarly for saving me and atoning for my sins..."? (Just seems like it can't be good for giving you much assurance.)

I notice you have run from any attempt to address John17:9, also.
Click to expand...

No it's a full and complete atonement, one that is perfect, finished and complete. There is not one good deed of man in this atonement and it has forgiven the sins of the whole world. Jesus is in fact the savior of the world and John 17:9 is merely Christ showing his foreknowledge of the sheep versus the goats which has nothing to do with the cross.
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Charles94 said:
Well, the Bible makes clear that God's wrath still abides on some - if Jesus is looking forward to His enemies being made His footstool, then their sin problem is still very much a problem.

Heb10:13-14...from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

The cross only accomplished something for those who are being sanctified in space and time. Until you can explain what that one offering accomplished for His enemies (and why He refused to pray for the world in John17:9), I really can't take you or your anathemas all that seriously.

Calvinists have a saying, "God is God and we are not." We don't know who will or won't receive the gospel. A nice suburban mom with a minivan might reject it and a war criminal might accept it and be saved. But your eagerness to make God seem nice requires you to deny that God declares the end from the beginning and accomplishes all that He desires - you re-create God in your limited and time-bound image so that you claim He has to hope for the best for every single person because He doesn't know the future. That is something the wicked would do. (Psa73:11)

Jesus gave Himself up for His sheep - He knows us by name. (John10:3,14-15) OTOH, Jesus taught that those who do not believe, refuse to believe because they are not of His sheep (John10:26) - you will answer to Him as to why you reverse His logic instead of believing His teaching...

(And since no one has quoted John Calvin yet so far as I can tell, it just makes you look like a lunatic for saying that anyone considers him a prophet. Jesus said if you loved Him, you'd obey Him...but bearing false witness doesn't seem to be the problem for you that it should be...)
Click to expand...

This fits into the real gospel better than yours where Christ has redeemed the whole world but only believers bring forth fruit unto God. The 'world' is only saved in Christ and it does not become theirs personally until conversion. So we have a 'world' that is saved in Christ and a 'world' that is broken up into sheep/goats - believers/unbelievers and when we look at John's writings in their entirety this is exactly the way the word 'world' is used. You try to make 'world' into world of the elect and it is never used that way not even one time - it is always everyone or the evil of the world.
 
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