Strawman
Calvinism: A declaration that God is unjust and that his Son is a failure
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
- Status
They cannot refute anything. All that they can do is make false accusations.
beloved57
Well-known member
You do teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost. That's unbelief!
Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app
Well, except that I didn't and it doesn't:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?125235-Calvinism-and-the-word-quot-WORLD-quot/page3
post #42
Seemed more appropriate to a thread where you and RPate try to teach that Matt16:26 is about how some people are hoping to gain "every single person" in exchange for their soul, 1Tim6:7 teaches that we brought nothing into this "every single person", John12:19 teaches that the Pharisees are complaining about how "every single person" (including themselves and the people in China at the time) were following after Jesus and that John17:9,20 teach that Jesus was refusing to pray for "every single person", including presumably those believers He just said He was praying for.
Just seems more logical to examine the context to tell you what KOSMOS means in a specific instance (and by all means, allow John's writings to clarify John's other writings since he uses a similar language in John11:51-52).
Try to keep up...
The God that you believe in is unjust and is not the God of the Bible. And then to make things worse you do not believe that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14. In the judgment you might be better of to be an atheist.
Epoisses
New member
Jesus saved the whole world and the elect believe it. The dichotomy that slices thru the errors of your kind.
Well, Jesus said, "Good trees produce good fruit." That sounds like you think Pharaoh was a good and humble man, who was eager to obey, but God made him do evil instead?
That would be a lot farther than Calvinists would go. God is free to constrain evil or redirect it in one way or another, but never forces men to choose evil; instead, they choose evil because it's their nature. Pharaoh hated God and his choices were always going to reflect that, whether God hardened him to continue his open rebellion, or let him cave and let the people go while he seethed and muttered under his breath.
OTOH, Calvinists do teach that God is free to compel men to do good (The noncalvinist book of Jonah must be very short for one example - God said, "Go to Nineveh." Jonah said, "I'd prefer not to." God said, "I respect your free will choice." THE END.), or to change their nature such that they start thinking like "good trees" (which can include means such as forcing Jonah to see his own self-centeredness as a means to changing his heart.)
Of course, I do understand that when Jesus said, "Good trees produce good fruit and bad trees produce bad fruit," you actually simply deny Him and prefer to teach, "Trees are free to produce any random sort of fruit that they wish, for no reason." That makes no sense at all but I get that you believe it. Except that you do seem to be saying that after God's hardening, that Pharaoh was definitely NOT free to obey. So are we clear that God was free to find fault (Rom9:19) even when Pharaoh was definitely NOT free to obey? Your logic here is not clearly stated.
If you interpret 2Pet3:9 as wrongly as Robert, then you would have issues teaching that God wanted Pharaoh or Eli's sons to repent. God cannot want them to repent at the same time that He is hardening them to their destruction.
It's duly noted, though, that you consider yourself to be an exemplar of obedience, and at no risk of being hardened like those "great sinners." But it sounds like your theology doesn't have anything to offer someone who might think of themselves as a great sinner. But while God was free to harden Pharaoh, He was also free to actively (and even forcibly) bring Paul to where he could understand the gospel and repent.
You have yet to demonstrate that you can make or follow simple logical proofs, for example:
Post #3 already addressed this, in advance. God tells the people in Ezek18:31 that they need to get rid of their offenses and they need a new heart. You trust Aristotle (though admittedly you are ignorant of the logical foundation of your argument), so you conclude that God can only command people to do what they are capable of (or he would be unjust by your and Aristotle's reckoning), so they must have the ability to give themselves a new heart.
They did (and they are). Ezek 36-37 are prophecies. (And Ezek 37 was not about physical death as it paralleled Ezek36 – God had to take the initiative to put His Spirit in them before they could come to Him in faith as He required to be restored to the land.)
God was saying He would have to act to give them a new heart and Spirit because they could not do it themselves (and it was necessary for them to be His people). So the prophecy was partly fulfilled years later when God gathered His people back into the OT promised land during the days of Ezra and Nehemiah. Before they could re-enter the land, He had to put His Spirit in them and CAUSE them to walk rightly, and THEN they would repent.
Some aspects of "free will" are interesting to try to apply to the Bible- few in ancient times could choose their own career or wife, etc. The king seemed the most free relative to other people, but the Bible teaches that God was not limited by a king's will.
Ezra1:1Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia...(to begin restoring God's people to their land.)
Prov21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.
The prophecies were not just for literal, physical Israel back in the OT times, either – at least according to Paul:
2Cor6:16 For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” (Ezek37:27)
Umm, no. I don't give a crap about your opinions. If you can show logically how the scriptures fit together, that would be something different, but I have posted numerous scriptures that show how men lack ability and that they make choices that reflect who they are. You keep posting "God commands X, therefore, people must have the ability to do X" but that was addressed in post#3.
God's Truth
New member
Just believe what the scripture says. The scripture says God stopped Pharaoh from obeying.
What you said does not make sense and it is just an attempt for you to avoid what is plainly written.
God put Jonah inside a whale and made him obey that way.
That is not Calvinism.
Your teachings go against God’s Truth.
Verse? Not even a nonsensical, pulled-out-of-context verse as you typically do? Nothing?
That's because the Bible says the opposite, that no one without the Spirit can really understand the gospel - they have no interest. (1Cor2:12-14; John8:42-43; John14:17; Rom8:5-9)
But once again, you don't believe the Bible.
Sure. That's basically what Calvinists teach. They choose for a reason: they are at enmity with God.
But while you teach that God made the same effort to save every single person, you presume that you would come to Christ because you are – of yourself alone – smarter, wiser, more humble and more spiritual than your unbelieving neighbor, Calvinists stick with the Bible, where God repeatedly demands credit for bringing His chosen ones to Himself. (Acts5:31; Acts11:18; Acts13:48; Acts16:14; John3:21)
1Cor3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
You are wicked and won't give God credit – you said if Calvinism were true, you would refuse to be involved in missions. OTOH, Paul was just happy to be a fellow-worker with Apollos, eager to please God with no illusions that God “needed him.” (Gal1:12) Paul eagerly gave God got ALL the credit for the increase in His Church. But you don't believe the Bible.
1Cor1:26-30 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God HAS CHOSEN the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God HAS CHOSEN the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God HAS CHOSEN, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But OF HIM you are in Christ Jesus...
God's choice is foundational – it is because of Him that we are in Christ Jesus.
Yet you try to steal God's glory – again, because you don't believe the Bible.
That is just what your lord and master Aristotle would say! That is exactly why I wrote post#3, to show you the foundations of why you despise the God of the Bible and His Son, Jesus. You like a handful of verses here and there, ripped out of their context to scratch your itchy little ears, but you chop out an awful lot.
Paul knew about Aristotle's teaching and that's where the argument from Rom9:18-20 comes from. You and “Pharaoh” are in complete agreement that based on Aristotle's teaching, if God intended Pharaoh's disobedience, then God was guilty of entrapment and Pharaoh was not guilty because he was not really free to do otherwise. Yet God mocks you in Romans 9 and says, “Who are you to reply against Me?”
You can curse the God of the Bible and call Him unjust, but when you try to hold Him accountable, He will laugh at you and...well, we're back to Psalm 2 and the end for you won't be pretty unless you repent.
And I did finally see this where you openly denied the God of the Bible (Isa46:10 ; Psa139:16; Dan4:35; Psa33:10-11; Psa135:6; Dan5:23) in this older thread:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ved-to-Get-Saved/page11&p=4622726#post4622726
Psa73:11-12And they say, “How does God know?And is there knowledge in the Most High?” Behold, these are the ungodly...
You keep choosing to side with some evil men in the scriptures. The scriptures are there to teach you if you let them. (And yes, you can only repent if God ordains it – but yes, you remain responsible in any event.)
John teaching that Jesus is the Savior of the Gentiles as well as the Jews? Yes, like I have said multiple times, that was a big contentious issue in the first century and it was addressed by several writers of the NT - John primarily to the Jews and Paul primarily to the Gentiles.
You suppose John was teaching that Jesus is the Savior of the unsaved? Like I have said multiple times, that is still complete nonsense. That you deny so many clear teachings of scripture to serve this sort of meaningless nonsense is kinda sad and pathetic, but it does go to show how hard a human heart can be.
But the notion that Jesus is the savior of Judas and the unbelievers in the same sense that He is your and Epoisses' savior is starting to develop a certain logic to it...
Quit being a wimp with all the tap dancing and own it: if "God stopped Pharaoh from obeying", then was Pharaoh still responsible to obey?
Epoisses
New member
Jesus is the savior of those who are ultimately lost and sent to hell. Their sins were atoned for by the blood of Christ, how can you at heart deny this? You make the work of Christ on the cross automatic but Jesus and the apostles never even hinted at this. Jesus said unless one is born of God he cannot even see the kingdom of God. Faith and belief were commanded over and over and over yet you reject any type of practical religion. In the parable of the sower the last 3 groups were all believers but only the last group reached maturity. Your Calvinist beliefs are no where to be found in scripture.
Epoisses
New member
I can find at least 3 verses that say Pharaoh hardened his own heart. I bet you never quote those!
But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Ex. 8:15
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Ex. 8:32
Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1Sam. 6:6
God's Truth
New member
If God stops someone from obeying then they will suffer the consequences.
God's Truth
New member
Three times God declares that he will harden Pharaoh's heart (Ex. 4:21; 7:3; 14:4). Six times God actually hardens Pharaoh's heart (Ex. 9:12; 10:1; 10:20; 10:27; 11:10; 14:8).
God's Truth
New member
God hardening Pharaoh's heart proves that man has free will and can learn about God and obey Him without first being saved as the Calvinists teach.
You're arguing against only part of what we teach. The part you're missing is that the reason they are still lost is that they reject Christ. Jesus died for all, but all will not be saved, why? Because God cannot save those who do not want to be saved.
Can you force someone to pull the cord on their parachute after they've jumped out of the plane? No, they have to want to pull the cord themselves. You gave them the parachute, and in doing so, gave them the ability to pull the cord.
Without the parachute, they will perish (sorry, no pun today). But with it, they'll live.
The parachute in the above example is representative of Christ's gift of salvation, His death on the cross, shedding His blood to cleanse us of our sins. The cord represents the decision to believe in Christ, accepting Christ as one's Savior is like pulling that cord.
Epoisses
New member
No, it shows the heart of man is desperately wicked and who can know it.
Good example. The Calvinist want God to pull the cord for them. He is not going to do that because salvation is a free gift that can only be received.
God's Truth
New member
The scripture you are trying to teach is not about ALL hearts; it is about how the heart, of all things on earth, it has the most possibility for wickedness.
You have been taught wrong about the scriptures.
- Status