By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

[beloved57]

Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we.

He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were under Gods wrath.

So what does Paul mean here by this designation " were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are.

And being sinners as the vessels of wrath are, they are also most deserving of Gods wrath and destruction as all men are by nature.

And also, by nature the Chosen are wrathful children towards God as other sinners are, meaning their disposition towards the True God is one of wrathful, enmity against Him as in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word for enemies here in the above is the word echthros :

From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)

1. hated, odious, hateful
2. hostile, hating, and opposing another
   1. used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
      1. opposing (God) in the mind

And the word hateful means resentful, even wrathful !

The elect/chosen by nature as in common with all other men are carnal in the flesh, and heres what Paul writes about them in the flesh Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2

So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !

 

[Nanja]

Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we.

He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were under Gods wrath.

So what does Paul mean here by this designation " were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are.

And being sinners as the vessels of wrath are, they are also most deserving of Gods wrath and destruction as all men are by nature.

And also, by nature the Chosen are wrathful children towards God as other sinners are, meaning their disposition towards the True God is one of wrathful, enmity against Him as in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word for enemies here in the above is the word echthros :

From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)

1. hated, odious, hateful
2. hostile, hating, and opposing another
   1. used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
      1. opposing (God) in the mind

And the word hateful means resentful, even wrathful !

The elect/chosen by nature as in common with all other men are carnal in the flesh, and heres what Paul writes about them in the flesh Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2

So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !

So True Brother, Our Heavenly Father has forever had nothing but Mercy on His His Chosen Eph. 1:4 Vessels of Mercy; even while they were unconverted; by nature, being children of wrath Eph. 2:3 as others !

Rom. 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

For even when they were being God's enemies Rom. 5:10; Col. 1:21, Christ's Righteousness had been already charged to them.

This awesome Truth is only revealed by the Holy Spirit in New Birth; those who are specifically Believing by the Power of God !

 

[beloved57]

The Elect/Chosen are never under Gods Wrath because Christ has already been made sin for them 2 Cor 5:21, and God doesnt impute sin to them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So consequently wheres there no sin imputed theres no wrath ! The wrath of God is upon imputed sin Rom 1:18


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

But this ungodliness and unrighteousness of sin isnt imputed to the Elect 2 Cor 5:19

Eph 5:5-6

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

But none of these things listed in Vs 5 are imputed to the elect so no wrath ! 2 Cor 5:19

Col 3:5-6

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

But none of these things in Vs 5 are imputed to the chosen, so no wrath

The reason for this blessedness is because all those sins when it comes to Gods chosen, have already came under the wrath of God as they were charged to Christ 2 Cor 5:21. And that was before the chosen ones were born !

 

[Bradley D]

So you do not believe in Free Will?

"I tell you, No: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

 

[beloved57]

So you do not believe in Free Will?

"I tell you, No: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

Do you want to discuss op or not ?

 

[Nanja]

The Elect/Chosen are never under Gods Wrath because Christ has already been made sin for them 2 Cor 5:21, and God doesnt impute sin to them 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So consequently wheres there no sin imputed theres no wrath ! The wrath of God is upon imputed sin Rom 1:18


For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

But this ungodliness and unrighteousness of sin isnt imputed to the Elect 2 Cor 5:19

Eph 5:5-6

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

But none of these things listed in Vs 5 are imputed to the elect so no wrath ! 2 Cor 5:19

Col 3:5-6

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

But none of these things in Vs 5 are imputed to the chosen, so no wrath

The reason for this blessedness is because all those sins when it comes to Gods chosen, have already came under the wrath of God as they were charged to Christ 2 Cor 5:21. And that was before the chosen ones were born !

Amen to the Truth Brother ! the Reconciled World of 2 Cor. 5:19 is a Blessed World which consists exclusively of those who were Chosen in Christ to have forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:4-7: God's Elect: None charged to them ever; and so totally acquitted before God, because in their stead, their sins were imputed to Christ 2 Cor. 5:21 their Surety even from Everlasting.

Heb. 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

 

[beloved57]

See even though the Elect will experience another nature via the New Birth, which will grant unto them Faith and Repentance and other fruit of the Spirit unto good works, Yet this new nature wasnt necessary to legally justify them or acquit them from Gods Wrath, that was accomplished solely by the merits of Christs obedience unto death on their behalf Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Having suffered, he will reflect on his work, he will be satisfied when he understands what he has done. “My servant will acquit many, for he carried their sins. NET

Thats why its declared He acuits/justifies the ungodly Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[beloved57]

Amen to the Truth Brother ! the Reconciled World of 2 Cor. 5:19 is a Blessed World which consists exclusively of those who were Chosen in Christ to have forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:4-7: God's Elect: None charged to them ever; and so totally acquitted before God, because in their stead, their sins were imputed to Christ 2 Cor. 5:21 their Surety even from Everlasting.

Heb. 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Amen Sister !

 

[beloved57]

Sinners who Christ died for, His Sheep/Elect, before they believe, God by Christs death for them has been propitiated 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

That word propitiation hilasmos:

a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice. hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath,

removal of wrath from sinners. When God's wrath against a sinner is propitiated, it is removed from that sinner. And the result is that all God's power now flows in the service of his mercy, with the result that nothing can stop him from saving that sinner.nal

So therefore if we believe Christs death was truly a propitiation Godward, its impossible for anyone Christ died for, namely His Elect Chosen in Christ before the foundation, to ever be under His Wrath, for that outright contradicts Christs propitiating death for them ! Remember Gods wrath is the punishment for our sins Eph 5:6; Col 3:6 !

 

[Bradley D]

Do you want to discuss op or not ?

I am is there free will among the elect?

 

[Right Divider]

I am is there free will among the elect?

First, don't fall for his version of "elect". It means different things at different places in the Bible and it NEVER means that he says that it means.

 

[Bradley D]

First, don't fall for his version of "elect". It means different things at different places in the Bible and it NEVER means that he says that it means.

I don't. I am just trying to see if he admits to believing in free will or not.

 

[Right Divider]

I don't. I am just trying to see if he admits to believing in free will or not.

He doesn't. He believes in a fake version of "sovereignty" where God controls everyone like we're robots.

 

[Nanja]

Sinners who Christ died for, His Sheep/Elect, before they believe, God by Christs death for them has been propitiated 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

That word propitiation hilasmos:

a propitiation (of an angry god), atoning sacrifice. hilasmós – properly, propitiation; an offering to appease (satisfy) an angry, offended party. Christ's atoning blood that appeases God's wrath,



So therefore if we believe Christs death was truly a propitiation Godward, its impossible for anyone Christ died for, namely His Elect Chosen in Christ before the foundation, to ever be under His Wrath, for that outright contradicts Christs propitiating death for them ! Remember Gods wrath is the punishment for our sins Eph 5:6; Col 3:6 !

Exactly Brother, all the sins of Christ's Sheep / God's Elect have Christ as their Advocate with the Father, for He has been totally propitiated by Christ's Death on their behalf, for their sins exclusively; so they were never at any time under God's wrath.

However, Christ has not taken away the sins of all men, but their sins will follow them, the children of disobedience Eph. 5:5 to the Judgment to be Judged for their sins.

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[beloved57]

Exactly Brother, all the sins of Christ's Sheep / God's Elect have Christ as their Advocate with the Father, for He has been totally propitiated by Christ's Death on their behalf, for their sins exclusively; so they were never at any time under God's wrath.

However, Christ has not taken away the sins of all men, but their sins will follow them, the children of disobedience Eph. 5:5 to the Judgment to be Judged for their sins.

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Matt. 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Exactly !

 

[beloved57]

The Elect aren't under Gods wrath at anytime, not even while they are by nature children of wrath like others Eph 2:3 ! The reason being is because all what they are by nature as ungodly rebels and sinners, has already been laid upon Christ, and He has provided satisfaction to Gods Justice for what they are by nature. God needs no more satisfaction against their sins, He's appeased on their behalf.

 

[Nanja]

The Elect aren't under Gods wrath at anytime, not even while they are by nature children of wrath like others Eph 2:3 ! The reason being is because all what they are by nature as ungodly rebels and sinners, has already been laid upon Christ, and He has provided satisfaction to Gods Justice for what they are by nature. God needs no more satisfaction against their sins, He's appeased on their behalf.

Exactly Brother ! The Elect of God, those Chosen in Christ Eph. 1:4, are born by nature as others are, worthy of wrath, but that doesn't mean they were born condemned or being charged with any sin, or under God's wrath at any time as others are, simply because God's wrath for them has already been appeased / spent on Christ in their behalf, and His Wrath is 100% satisfied for them by Christ's Blood Rom. 5:10.

 

[beloved57]

If the elect of God, who by nature are the children of wrath as others[the non elect] if they at anytime be under Gods wrath because of their sins and being children of wrath by nature, then it serves to reason that Gods wrath wasn't turned away by the atoning blood of His Dear Son, that His blood failed to satisfy His offended Justice for them, that His Blood failed to propitiate Him, to appease or turn away His Wrath on them. If that Blood didn't do it, then what does ? Is it the sinners act of believing that ultimately appeased Gods Wrath over and above the Blood of Christ ?

 

[Nanja]

If the elect of God, who by nature are the children of wrath as others[the non elect] if they at anytime be under Gods wrath because of their sins and being children of wrath by nature, then it serves to reason that Gods wrath wasn't turned away by the atoning blood of His Dear Son, that His blood failed to satisfy His offended Justice for them, that His Blood failed to propitiate Him, to appease or turn away His Wrath on them. If that Blood didn't do it, then what does ? Is it the sinners act of believing that ultimately appeased Gods Wrath over and above the Blood of Christ ?

The elect of God, even though by nature the children of wrath as others, were never under God's wrath for their sins at any time, even while being His enemies and unbelievers. For in the Purpose of God they were reconciled to Him by the Blood of Christ Rom. 5:10. Hence God's wrath was turned away by the atoning Death of His Dear Son.

Consequently, unless a sinner has been Born of God John 3:3, their own act of believing is nothing more than a work of the flesh or mind that cannot please Him Rom. 8:7-8: Nothing that a sinner does, no action on his/her part, can possibly appease God's wrath: But but the Blood of Christ alone !

 

[Right Divider]

The elect of God, even though by nature the children of wrath as others, were never under God's wrath for their sins at any time, even while being His enemies and unbelievers. For in the Purpose of God they were reconciled to Him by the Blood of Christ Rom. 5:10. Hence God's wrath was turned away by the atoning Death of His Dear Son.

Consequently, unless a sinner has been Born of God John 3:3, their own act of believing is nothing more than a work of the flesh or mind that cannot please Him Rom. 8:7-8: Nothing that a sinner does, no action on his/her part, can possibly appease God's wrath: But but the Blood of Christ alone !

Your idea of "election" is completely wrong. Therefore, your pontification about it is worthless.