BRXII Battle talk

[Aimiel]

When people reject Truth, as you do, they're rejecting Christ. Re-writing His Gospel isn't Christian, it is heresy. The 'Christ' you represent to them isn't The One found in The Scriptures, He is imaginary. An invention of heresy cannot save anyone. The Holy Spirit uses everything necessary to further The Gospel, even The Truth about the Lake of Fire, which is why Jesus described it. He doesn't like His Word being re-interpreted to make it 'politically correct.'

 

[Aimiel]

There go those fruits again...

I wonder why impatience, bitterness, and vindictiveness and spite aren't in the list in
Gal 5:22?

The same reason that projecting and mind-reading aren't. I'm not being impatient, bitter or vindictive; I merely care for the soul of someone who 'thinks' they're saved, just like I care about people that worship a 'hippie-jesus' who doesn't exist, like yourself.

 

[Nineveh]

I guess I'll take your ignoring me on the issue as a "yes", logos. At least kimberlyann had the guts to tell the truth about why she believes as she does.

 

[Aionios]

Did Polycarp believe in eternal torment?

Now, good things are eternal (aionios) and without end (ateleutetos) with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal (aionios) and never-ending (ateleutetos).” [Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 27)

Now...I can't answer for what all of the church fathers believed. But in this quote from Polycarp's Against Heresies shows something profound.

He uses a word...ateleutetos...to discribe eternal....NOT AOINIOS!

This means he did not rely on scripture alone to write his "against heresies"...he added a word to make it never ending.

Whether or not he was a direct disciple of John...it is not a proof that he held to the teaching of the Apostle when he added a word that is not in the Bible to make his argument.

And the fact that he had to add that word to MAKE it mean eternal..and that word is not in the Bible...doesn't make for a very strong argument that he was right.

Clearly, other Church fathers were not in agreement with Polycarp on this point.

Irenaeus: Against Heresies, not Polycarp.......

 

[PKevman]

I appreciate that.

You say you appreciate it, but you continue to insult those who care for your soul by misrepresenting them and setting up straw men. Like saying those who believe what the Bible says are going against the early church. Also I would like to engage you a bit on your "History" in regards to saying that the entire early church was Universalist. We'll get to that a little later. I will just say that there is a danger in allowing one particular group of people to define history for you. Also earlier, you said that we believe it is wrong to question one's beliefs. This is an outright falsehood. I ENCOURAGE people to question their beliefs and to find answers in God's Word. Anyone who knows me and has heard me preach or teach can testify to that. I have also said it plenty of times on this board. IF YOU appreciate people caring for your soul then you would at least have the courtesy to STOP misrepresenting them. The arguments that you make "Eternal tormenters" are cultists, etc...comes from reading too much Universalist propoganda! If anyone behaves like cultists it's Universalists. Such as placing the teaching of Tentmaster.org as equal to that of the Bible (and in the case of some Universalists they elevate it above the Bible, I have SEEN them do it repeatedly)!

Discussing the nature of Hell is in itself a daunting task, isn't it?

Not if you believe the Bible. Jesus spoke very plainly about the subject. That is why the VAST MAJORITY of people who READ the debate AND had the interest to vote on it, stated overwhelmingly that it was won by myself. I say that not to brag or gloat but to point out that the arguments Universalism made when it had its opportunity in the spotlight left little to be desired! When posed with direct questions that it HAS to answer from the Word of God Universalism ALWAYS fallse way short. It is only by twisting and turning and avoiding issues directly, changing the subject and not directly answering questions that these debates continue on and the task becomes daunting. It is not daunting to present the truth. It is daunting to refute error when someone believes the error wholeheartedly and passionately! (See: homosexuals for an example).

But...since the doctrine of eternal torment is the reason so many people reject Christ,

This is a categorical lie from the pit of hell....literally.....Many people see their need for a Savior when they see themselves as wicked sinners on the way to hell. People who reject Christ are just LOOKING FOR AN EXCUSE! I have heard many such excuses from people over the years, and many of them have nothing to do with God's eternal judgment of the wicked. In fact, MORE PEOPLE are pushed away from Christ and the church by hypocrisy and lack of love in the church than by the teaching of an eternal Lake of Fire. That the Lake of Fire is eternal has been so widely accepted in MOST evangelical Bible-believing churches is the main reason why it is hardly ever an issue in the church.

I think that showing people where the belief that eternal torment isn't a necessary interpretation is valuable.

Not if staying true to the Scriptures one desires to do. (Said in a Yoda voice)

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe. These things command and teach.
(1Ti 4:9-11 KJV)

We have already discussed this passage SO MANY TIMES at length. Would you like to again? Please read the whole chapter of 1 Timothy 4 and we can start up a discussion about it maybe in another thread......

May the Holy Spirit use this discussion for the furtherance of the Gospel.

I hope that He does, because the Gospel has nothing to do with Universalism.

Peace to you.

 

[PKevman]

I guess I'll take your ignoring me on the issue as a "yes", logos. At least kimberlyann had the guts to tell the truth about why she believes as she does.

Red also said it at one point as well that he had a very close friend that he knew in youth group who passed away and this was what caused him to begin leaning to Universalism because he didn't want to think his friend had gone to hell.

 

[logos_x]

Irenaeus: Against Heresies, not Polycarp.......

Indeed.

 

[logos_x]

You say you appreciate it, but you continue to insult those who care for your soul by misrepresenting them and setting up straw men.

Kevin, I'm not trying to insult anyone. But if you noticed...the "insults" are flying from both sides of the aisle here. In fact...both our arguments sound very similar. You say I'm insulting...yet you make the same sort of insults toward "universalists". I could make a post that sounds almost exactly the same as yours...and you would call it "insulting".
In fact...that is exactly what has happened.

This is what happens when two belief systems based on the same material is debated. You think I'm wrong so you accuse me of heresy, say we're in a cult, say we don't understand what we're reading...then I say essentially the very same thing about you.

This is because this is the believers in eternal torment against those who don't and we focus in on the people rather than the doctrines...but I suppose this in ineveitable.

Now..insofar as the "why" I believe in universal salvation, it is because I'm convinced it is the most biblical doctrine. Why I started thinking about the nature of Hell is because of the implications of the doctrine of eternal torment...quite simply, the Devil wins way too much...and I wondered why God was satisfied with that...so I began to pray about that and ask for answers.

Why is it so important why a person makes an investigation to find out the truth? What matters is that they do. I suppose there are a variety of reasons one would begin to question a doctrine...ANY doctrine, and find out what is true.

You could just as easily ask why one would begin believing in the Open View after years and years of being a Calvinist. And if it turns out it was because someone close to them died was the reason...would that make you think less of there position?

Good day?

 

[SOTK]

I'm not sure if I am posting in the right place, but I thought I'd state that the debate between PK and Logos was interesting. I wish there would have been more rounds as I don't think the arguments were long enough. You both did a pretty good job. The biblical position is the position which PK argued for, and obviously, the one which I take.

 

[Solaris]

Kevin, I'm not trying to insult anyone. But if you noticed...the "insults" are flying from both sides of the aisle here. In fact...both our arguments sound very similar. You say I'm insulting...yet you make the same sort of insults toward "universalists". I could make a post that sounds almost exactly the same as yours...and you would call it "insulting".
In fact...that is exactly what has happened.

This is what happens when two belief systems based on the same material is debated. You think I'm wrong so you accuse me of heresy, say we're in a cult, say we don't understand what we're reading...then I say essentially the very same thing about you.

This is because this is the believers in eternal torment against those who don't and we focus in on the people rather than the doctrines...but I suppose this in ineveitable.

Now..insofar as the "why" I believe in universal salvation, it is because I'm convinced it is the most biblical doctrine. Why I started thinking about the nature of Hell is because of the implications of the doctrine of eternal torment...quite simply, the Devil wins way too much...and I wondered why God was satisfied with that...so I began to pray about that and ask for answers.

Why is it so important why a person makes an investigation to find out the truth? What matters is that they do. I suppose there are a variety of reasons one would begin to question a doctrine...ANY doctrine, and find out what is true.

You could just as easily ask why one would begin believing in the Open View after years and years of being a Calvinist. And if it turns out it was because someone close to them died was the reason...would that make you think less of there position?

Good day?

i do think that it is impossible to divorce emotions from this subject, sometimes the various trials in life in which we all take part can cause us to question our most fundamental beliefs. Having read through the last few pages of this thread it seems that any argument appealing to the emotions or human morality on this matter is regarded as weakness from those who support eternal hell, whereas I would accept that any belief has to be scripturally based to warrant validity I do not see the irrelevance of our God given feelings in the matter also. after all, part of what raises us up beyond the animal kingdom is the ability to feel and think independently, most importantly to love, be loved and to show love towards others. Its a very interesting debate and respect to all of the participants, I would have to say though that I believe that God has envisaged a future where all suffering comes to a full stop, God is love, that one simple verse to my mind nullifies eternal conscious torment regardless of the emotional and moral objections I could offer, just my two cents

 

[Aimiel]

Having read through the last few pages of this thread it seems that any argument appealing to the emotions or human morality on this matter is regarded as weakness from those who support eternal hell, whereas I would accept that any belief has to be scripturally based to warrant validity I do not see the irrelevance of our God given feelings in the matter also.

God does see the irrelevance of 'feelings' when it comes to how He has decided to arrange things, though, which is why He has to tell us how things are, instead of us merely postulating or even merely existing in a universe where emotions or relevancy are the deciding factors of reality. That would be one chaotic mess, from what I've gathered about people's emotions and descriptions of what is and isn't relevant. It would be a constantly changing roller-coaster of madness.

...after all, part of what raises us up beyond the animal kingdom is the ability to feel and think independently, most importantly to love, be loved and to show love towards others.

But, again, those factors don't dictate reality.

...I would have to say though that I believe that God has envisaged a future where all suffering comes to a full stop, God is love, that one simple verse to my mind nullifies eternal conscious torment regardless of the emotional and moral objections I could offer, just my two cents

Any objections (on any grounds) are nothing more than just that: objections. What will be is what has been described, by The Lord, Himself. He has described eternal conscious torment. He has not said that it will come to an end. He also has not said that anyone sent there will ever return. He has not said that everyone who has ever lived will be saved. These things are only said by heretics, who don't believe The Word of God, they want to make what has been said mean what they want to hear. Professing themselves to be wise, they have become fools.

 

[Nineveh]

...The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked...

The heart can not trump the Word. We should be lead by the Spirit, not our emotions.

 

[logos_x]

But, again, those factors don't dictate reality.Any objections (on any grounds) are nothing more than just that: objections. What will be is what has been described, by The Lord, Himself. He has described eternal conscious torment. He has not said that it will come to an end. He also has not said that anyone sent there will ever return. He has not said that everyone who has ever lived will be saved. These things are only said by heretics, who don't believe The Word of God, they want to make what has been said mean what they want to hear. Professing themselves to be wise, they have become fools.

ANY objection, on ANY grounds Aimiel?

Here is what I believe the following Bible passages teach...

Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world
Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all
1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved.
1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth
1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time
Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will
1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world
Col 1:16 In Him all were created
Rm 5:15-21 through Adam all condemned, through Christ all live
1Cor 15:22 Through Adam all die, through Christ all live
Eph 1:10 All come into Him at the fullness of times
Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord; 1 Cor 12:3 Cannot confess except by the Holy Spirit
Rm 11:26 All Israel will be saved
Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all things
Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people
Heb 8:11,12 All will know God
Eph 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come
Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all
Rm 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty of the sons of God
Col 1:20 All reconciled unto God
1Cor 4:5 All will have praise of God
Jms 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy
Rev 15:4 All nations worship when God's judgments are seen
Rm 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all all
Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill all things
Rev 5:13 All creation seen praising God
1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all
Rev 21:4,5 No more tears, all things made new
Jn 5:25 All dead who hear will live
Jn 5:28 All in the grave will hear & come forth
1 Cor 3:15 saved, so as by fire
Mk 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire
Rm 11:15 Reconciliation of the world
2Cor 5:15 Jesus died for all
Jn 8:29 Jesus always does what pleases His Father
Heb 1:2 Jesus is Heir of all things
Jn 3:35 All has been given into Jesus' hands
Jn 17:2 Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him
Jn 13:35 The Father gave Him all things
1 Tim 4:9-11 Jesus is Savior of all
Heb. 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost
1Cor 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed
Is 46:10 God will do all His pleasure
Gen 18:18 All families of the earth will be blessed
Dan 4:35 God's will done in heaven and earth
Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God
Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return
Is 25:7 Will destroy veil spread over all nations
Deut 32:39 He kills and makes alive
Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts
Prv 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps
Prv 19:21 Man devises, but God's counsel stands
La 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever
Is 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord's house
Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him
Is 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified
Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God
Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God
Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things
Is 19:14,15 Egypt & Assyria will be restored
Ezk 16:55 Sodom will be restored
Jer 32:17 Nothing is too difficult for Him
Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him
Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him
Ps 145:9 He is good to all
Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works
Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall
Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him
Is 25:6 Lord makes a feast for all people
Jer 32:35 Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire
Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him
Jn 6:44 No one can come to Him unless the Father draws them
Jn 12:32 I will draw all mankind unto Myself
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things

But I guess I'm wrong. I'm just an emotional madman, trying to get people to see these scriptures mean what I think they mean.

Please explain how it is that God, by inspiring the writers of the Bible to use the words they used, and by inspiring them to use words like "aion" and it's adjectives, has somehow contradicted everything said in the above verses of scripture?

I don't think He contradicted these scriptures at all...certainly using the words He inspired them to use.

But...I guess any objection, on any grounds, to eternal conscious torment is foolishness...and a mere emotional excursion into some kind of fantasyland...isn't it?

 

[Kimberlyann]

7:12
But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her.
7:13
And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.
7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 7:15
Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.
7:16
For how do you know , O wife, whether you will save your husband ? Or how do you know , O husband, whether you will save your wife ?

16:30
and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved ?"
16:31
They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Pastor Kevin,


When my brother died, I had a hard time even attending his funeral, I only went for a short time each day. I spent the majority those days and nights crying over my Bible trying to find comfort in God's word. The above Scriptures are the only ones I could find at that time that gave me hope.

So my question to you is, can we believe them? Can a grieving Christian mother take comfort those Scriptures and know that God will save her unbelieving child?


What words of comfort would you offer a member of your Church if they were faced with the loss of a unbelieving child?

 

[Kimberlyann]

...The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked...

The heart can not trump the Word. We should be lead by the Spirit, not our emotions.

Romans 2:15 http://bible.cc/romans/2-15.htm
NASB: in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, (NASB ©1995)
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GWT: They show that some requirements found in Moses' Teachings are written in their hearts. Their consciences speak to them. Their thoughts accuse them on one occasion and defend them on another. (GOD'S WORD®)
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KJV: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
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ASV: in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them );
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BBE: Because the work of the law is seen in their hearts, their sense of right and wrong giving witness to it, while their minds are at one time judging them and at another giving them approval;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DBY: who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts accusing or else excusing themselves between themselves
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WEY: since they exhibit proof that a knowledge of the conduct which the Law requires is engraven on their hearts, while their consciences also bear witness to the Law, and their thoughts, as if in mutual discussion, accuse them or perhaps maintain their innocence--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WBS: Who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing testimony, and their thoughts the mean while accusing, or else excusing one another)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WEB: in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them)
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YLT: who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending,

 

[Aimiel]

But...I guess any objection, on any grounds, to eternal conscious torment is foolishness...and a mere emotional excursion into some kind of fantasyland...isn't it?

You know, for once, I kinda' have to agree with you. :think:

 

[Kimberlyann]

Jeremiah 31 NASB
31:31
"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
31:32
not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke , although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.
31:33
"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people .
31:34
"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

 

[logos_x]

You know, for once, I kinda' have to agree with you. :think:

I guess it's a real shame that I don't. :think:

 

[logos_x]

...The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked...

The heart can not trump the Word. We should be lead by the Spirit, not our emotions.

Thank you Mr. Spock.

Just how logical would it be to have people tormented for all eternity just so they are tormented for all eternity future?

 

[Nineveh]

Romans 2:15 http://bible.cc/romans/2-15.htm
NASB: in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, (NASB ©1995)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GWT: They show that some requirements found in Moses' Teachings are written in their hearts. Their consciences speak to them. Their thoughts accuse them on one occasion and defend them on another. (GOD'S WORD®)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KJV: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASV: in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them );
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BBE: Because the work of the law is seen in their hearts, their sense of right and wrong giving witness to it, while their minds are at one time judging them and at another giving them approval;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DBY: who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts accusing or else excusing themselves between themselves
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WEY: since they exhibit proof that a knowledge of the conduct which the Law requires is engraven on their hearts, while their consciences also bear witness to the Law, and their thoughts, as if in mutual discussion, accuse them or perhaps maintain their innocence--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WBS: Who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing testimony, and their thoughts the mean while accusing, or else excusing one another)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WEB: in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YLT: who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending,

Ok, so one more verse ripped out of context. What false hope or comfort would you like me to gleen from this?