BRXII Battle talk

[PKevman]

What Kevin says is true insofar as I do not have a Greek degree. The thing is...even if I did, the scholars themselves are not in agreement.

Aion is the word from which we get our English word Eon.
I cited several scholars in my opening for the Battle Royale that clearly disagree with the scholars Kevin wants to cite as backing for His view.

What I find fascinating is the history behind the doctrine of eternal torment. For the first 500 to 600 years the majority of Christians believed in Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ...as long Greek was the primary language of the Church. One theological school arose in Rome, and using Latin as it's primary language taught eternal torment.

How eternal torment came to be the "orthodox veiw" after then is a history of the Catholic Church imposing it's "orthodoxy", by force eventually, upon the world. Suddenly, many of the church fathers were declared to be heretics...including the composer of the first systematic theology of the church...of which universal salvation through Jesus Christ was a primary pillar.

This all began because aionios was translated into Latin as "aeternum" when it is associated with punishment.

Why did the majority of the Christian world believe that all men would be saved and judgements were a part of that process so long as Greek was their primary language...and then that all changed when the Latin speaking Roman Church imposed it's dominion upon Europe?

Most of the arguments for eternal torment...which was first put into a systematic theology by Augustine... was written to convince Christians that did not believe in eternal torment of it's fidelity to God's revelation of Himself. Most of those arguments failed miserably.

The Catholic Church began killing people that disagreed with them...among them believers that Jesus Christ would save all men. their writings were declared ananthema...and burned or otherwise discredited. Many died at the hands of church "leadership". Things got so bad that if anyone did not agree with the Catholic doctrine they would never admit it.

Until the reformation...the Church didn't even remotely resemble what the Bible taught anymore.

Given that kind of history...coupled with the fact that the majority of Greek speaking Christians did not believe in unending misery...leads me to one conclusion: The doctrine of eternal torment was a strong delusion that took hold of the Chrurch from ouside the teaching of scripture...and it did so 600 years after the beginning of the Church!

The good news is...we still have scholars that will recognize these facts and not sweep them under the rug. These are the ones I choose to trust.

So it is your position that the early church deliberately misguided people and created a doctrine that did not exist in early Christians? Why did Polycarp John's direct disciple believe in eternal torment then? You have never attempted to answer that question...........
I guess Polycarp didn't know how to speak Greek?

 

[Aimiel]

Why do Universalists say they believe that God accomplishes ALL of His will but deny that He could preserve His Word to modern times............. :think:

They're not thinking, they're proof-texting. The things they do are obvious to everyone but themselves.

 

[PKevman]

They're not thinking, they're proof-texting. The things they do are obvious to everyone but themselves.

Well said.

 

[PKevman]

I got it. The early church was more powerful than Jesus and able to keep Him from fulfilling His promise to preserve His Word. Man I wish I had seen this before. Sure am glad for the Universalists. :chuckle:

 

[Aimiel]

Well said.

It's on fire inside of my very bones. I have to speak, or the rocks will cry out!!! :thumb:

 

[Balder]

I have already answered these kinds of questions from you several times Balder. I have seen others answer them as well. You didn't like the answers you got so you keep restating the questions.

Well, you ignored my last post to you, and I believe others as well. Was your answer, No, it doesn't bother you morally?

 

[Aimiel]

I got it. The early church was more powerful than Jesus and able to keep Him from fulfilling His promise to preserve His Word. Man I wish I had seen this before. Sure am glad for the Universalists. :chuckle:

Taken to the extreme (that The Word of God is in error) you end up with Islam. Circumventing The Word of God altogether is SDA's, and many other cults. Why throw out orthodoxy, when it is clear that The Word of God means exactly what It says? Why not simply believe God, instead of a big pile of teachers feeding your itching ears? Why not follow Him, instead of those who claim to know 'about' Him?

 

[Balder]

It's clear that Aimiel has no compunction about people being tortured for eternity as "just punishment."

It's a clear gap in moral reasoning that separates the Universalists from the Damnationalists, in my opinion.

 

[PKevman]

Well, you ignored my last post to you, and I believe others as well. Was your answer, No, it doesn't bother you morally?

I have submitted myself to the Lord and to His Word, so no because the Bible teaches that God will judge righteously. Now we know in part, then we will understand in full, and there will be no railing accusations that can be made against God. God doesn't judge according to man's wisdom. God is a perfect and holy God and the penalty for sin is death (physical and spiritual). UNTIL an individual humbles himself and comes to God on God's terms and not on his own terms, he is lost and will die in his sins and spend eternity in torment. Jesus took upon Himself OUR death penalty. All we need to do is trust Him and believe in Him.

God has made an excellent way OUT from the judgment that mankind has earned and deserves. He provided His Son as a sacrifice. What bothers me morally is people who SPIT on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and reject Him, and then make railing accusations against God. That bothers me quite a bit.
Does it bother me to know that I have friends and loved ones that will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire? Yes of course it does. That is one of the reasons WHY I BURN with THE PASSION to reach them and as many as possible with the GOSPEL OF GRACE!

He who knew no sin became sin for us! Praise the Lord!

 

[Aimiel]

It's clear that Aimiel has no compunction about people being tortured for eternity as "just punishment."

As a Christian, and having been a sinner for much of my life, I know that sinners deserve their fate.

It's a clear gap in moral reasoning that separates the Universalists from the Damnationalists, in my opinion.

Wonder where Christians stand in your opinion. You being a 'damnationalist' and all.

 

[PKevman]

It's clear that Aimiel has no compunction about people being tortured for eternity as "just punishment."

It's a clear gap in moral reasoning that separates the Universalists from the Damnationalists, in my opinion.

What is a Damnationalist? There is no such thing. Universalism is named that for the system of beliefs that Universalists hold. They call themselves that. (Except some are ashamed to be called that it seems to me).

I am a Biblicist. I believe in the inspiration and authority of the Word of God.

 

[Aionios]

UNIVERSALISTS VS. JESUS:

Universalist: Modern translations CANNOT be trusted.

Jesus: For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Of course the Lord's Words won't pass away, but human beings can interpret His Word poorly. Let's not forget that the Church interpreted Matthew 16:18-

1"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

-to prove that Jesus appointed Peter the "first pope".

What we have is an interpretation difference.

 

[PKevman]

Of course the Lord's Words won't pass away, but human beings can interpret His Word poorly. Let's not forget that the Church interpreted Matthew 16:18-

1"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

-to prove that Jesus appointed Peter the "first pope".

What we have is an interpretation difference.

True but the issues we are dealing with are more than just interpretation. It is also translation among other things. But yes I agree that many wrong interpretations have led to a whole lotta false teaching over the years. I inculde Universalism in this............

 

[Nineveh]

red77,

When you get back, please respond to this post:

You accused me of misrepresenting kimberlyann.

whats more I know that Kim hasnt relied on her 'feelings' on the matter much as you would like it to be so to trash her beliefs as 'sentimental' or some such.....that isnt the case as many of her posts will testify to on this site......

Ok, if there is more on the issue, by all means please share. Where are the verses that limit the lake.

 

[Balder]

I say "damnationalist," though I should say "eternal damnationalist." I know that that isn't anyone's formal title, but it's a fair way of describing those who believe in the doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

I think there is such a gap in moral perspective between those who do not have any problems with the idea of eternal damnation, and in fact would inflict such a sentence themselves if given the opportunity, and those who see it as an abominable evil, that this conversation will not likely be resolved on Biblical grounds. Simply because the hearts looking at the Bible are so different. Without moral growth, the eternal damnationalists will continue to see such a sentence as justifiable.

 

[Aionios]

True but the issues we are dealing with are more than just interpretation. It is also translation among other things. But yes I agree that many wrong interpretations have led to a whole lotta false teaching over the years. I inculde Universalism in this............

Translation also involves interpretation. If you study the matter, you will find that those who translate Scripture have to make judgement calls. That's why we have differences among the translations......
The non universalist argument has better arguments than what you are putting forth.

 

[Nineveh]

I think there is such a gap in moral perspective between those who...

...reject the Word of God and those who do not.

 

[Aimiel]

I say "damnationalist," though I should say "eternal damnationalist." I know that that isn't anyone's formal title, but it's a fair way of describing those who believe in the doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

Seems to me you're trying to blame Christians for the fate you face, instead of seeking The Only One Who can deliver you from that fate; and certainly not spreading The Only Gospel that can deliver someone from eternal damation. Looks to me like it would be a far more fair way of describing you, who not only can expect damnation, but seem to be doing everything you can to prevent anyone from escaping the same fate.

I think there is such a gap in moral perspective between those who do not have any problems with the idea of eternal damnation, and in fact would inflict such a sentence themselves if given the opportunity, and those who see it as an abominable evil, that this conversation will not likely be resolved on Biblical grounds.

It can't if you don't stand on those grounds. The Word of God is Truth, not something you can pick and choose from to create your own theology of imagination.

Simply because the hearts looking at the Bible are so different. Without moral growth, the eternal damnationalists will continue to see such a sentence as justifiable.

Christians see the fate that eternaly damned are facing and try to steer them away from it; if we tried to promote that fate the way that you and anyone who doesn't understand The One and Only Gospel do we'd be just as guilty of sin as you and they are. It is a matter of perspective. It's like you know you don't have any defence for yourself, the way that murdering abortionists do, so you want to demonize us the way they do, by calling us, "Anti-choice." They are pro-murder, just like you're 'pro-damnation.' You are as accurssed as they are. Repent!!!

 

[Aimiel]

I think there is such a gap in moral perspective between those who...

...reject the Word of God and those who do not.

:thumb:

 

[Balder]

The Only One Who Can Deliver Me from that fate is the same monster as the Only One Who Will Inflict That Fate, in your book.