BRXII Battle talk

[red77]

Logos has already pointed out there are limits to that "all", like death, and hell. If the subjection of death and hell can take place in the lake, why not "those not found written in the Book of Life"?

And also sin......what you seem to overlook is that in your doctrine people are separated away from God - not to him, death,hell and sin are all negatives, its what God overcomes to BE all in all - death is the last enemy to be destroyed.......

But you seem to keep insisting we dialog.

Takes two to do that...

You are the one trying to define what being in rebellion is, apart from Scripture.

No I'm not you are.....!

It's their own personal reasons for rejecting Christ.

Like I said - it makes it easier to think that everyone sticks two fingers up in your doctrine, in effect they 'ask for all they get'

In a worst case scenario, what if they don't repent and die? Another guilty conscience for you to have an excuse to hold onto to the idea of them repenting "age during". Why not preach the Gospel to them while they still have hope?

in the worst case scenario I'll be in mourning for a very good friend who I would have hoped would have found belief during a very very difficult time of his life, you talk to me about having a guilty conscience? My friend heard the ET message as I said before, the church I was in told me that a 15 year old friend we'd both had who committed suicide was bound for eternal pain, it sickened both of us, preaching ET doesnt draw many people to faith Nineveh, it very often has the opposite effect....
and quite frankly dont judge me about guilty consciences when it comes to people I love and care about, I'm not responsible for the beliefs or lack thereof of another, I happen to believe there's hope for all and at the moment I'm praying for a close friend to recover from cancer as well as to have the right words to say when we talk - so if you have any tact/empathy you'll choose your words a bit more carefully if you respond.....

The truth comes out. It's much better to lie and offer false comfort and false hope. I'm sure it does make you feel better.

You really are in no position to judge me as to what makes me feel better, I have a friend who's got cancer and another who's just lost his dad, how the hell do you think I'm feeling right now? The fact is you'd have me offer no hope to the friend who's lost his dad other than to say hopefully his dad repented in the fading moments of his life, true?
You would have no hope to offer, I guess I should still sugar coat the 'truth' to him though shouldnt I and not be an 'arrogant jerk' about telling him that his dad - if he didnt repent - is awaiting unending agony?

That's what happens when you jump into someone else's convo. You may want to go back and try to follow along. You might notice I was indeed speaking of the whole Bible.

You were the one who quoted this verse - and have done before to make it mean ET when it doesnt in fact mention anything of the kind

Subjugation means bringing into submission.

EEGADS! Do you really believe God is or ever will be "is all in all"? You really need to think about this before you answer.

I know what subjugation means, i dont have a problem with the definition, I believe that once all things are subjected God will be all in all, its pretty straightforward....

I know that's what you need to believe to support your docrtrine.

And what you cant believe to maintain yours.....

 

[Aimiel]

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

They never die...it's a fate worse than death...how can it be waht you say here and be called death when they are alive in fiery torment?

What dies?

To all that lives, God, men, animals even plants, they are dead. Suffering in eternal darkness, completely alone. That is not life, by any stretch. It is suffering in darkness, alone. It is what people think of, in their worst nightmare of what death is. Being conscious of what is happening to your body in the ground, as worms devour your flesh, under six feet of dirt would be a vacation compared to The Second Death. The only reason that we equate death with a lack of existence is because we are hampered from seeing the spirit realm by our physical bodies. When someone dies, it means they are either ushered into The Lord's Presence (believers) or they are judged guilty of sin and sent to hell. There is no annihilationism taught in The Word of God, and I have no idea where those who subscribe to it think that it is the least bit plausible, and those who believe universalism make even less sense, because they're perverting what is written.

 

[Nineveh]

Takes two to do that...

You are absolutely right

 

[PKevman]

Kevin and Nineveh,

You've quoted the same verses to me, but it just doesn't make sense. You say that everyone knows God exists and therefore is without excuse, and yet when "belief in God" shows up in any context outside of historical Christianity, using different names and metaphors to describe the "creator of the universe," you call this ungodly paganism and say that the followers of this divine creator are all going to hell unless they repent and worship YOUR God, using YOUR culturally determined, Biblically based names, images, metaphors, and stories.

If creation testifies not just to the existence of "a" creator, but specifically to the "God of the Bible," I'd love to hear what exactly in creation should lead people to believe in YHWH with the specificity of detail which you require for salvation.

Best wishes,

Balder

Everyone alive has a knowledge of God whether they admit it or not. If they will seek God they will find Him. It is that simple. There is no eternal life apart from a relationship with Jesus Christ. Your argument is how can that be fair if so many people have not heard His name. The answer is simple. If in their hearts they truly desire to have a real relationship with God then God will make Himself known to them. There are missionairies going all over the world presenting the gospel and there are people who have never heard the name of Christ who have been reached with the gospel and given their hearts to Jesus Christ.

 

[Redfin]

I said: "Maybe you should share the gospel with your friend? Instead of reinforcing their idea they are "good enough"..." and "Telling them they surely are good enough to stand before the Righteous Creator God without being cleansed in the Blood of the Lamb."

One of the universalist proponents on this thread right now teaches this, among other unbiblical things. If they are wrong on that point, perhaps they are just as wrong on this one. That is why I suggested you might want to preach humility to the one who does not know what humility is.

Besides the one who preaches these ideas, why are you adressing me about my reply to red77? Those ideas are glaringly obvious in red's posts.

I am not defending anyone elses' ideas.

I am defending Christian Universalism as I understand it.

Please excuse my delays in responding. I am in a radically different time-zone than most of you, and am dealing with 9+ hour power outages per day (in Albania).

 

[red77]

God knew the hoplessness of the situation so He insterted hope. Stephen if you and I only disagree on the eternality of the Lake of Fire, then why do pagans so easily and readily identify with Universalists and get their thumbs up and praise while I get their scorn?

Pastor - to be honest this is obvious, if you go along with Nineveh's definition of a 'pagan' being someone who isnt Chritian it encompasses a vast range of peope - and billions of them - agnostics/atheists etc......
if you were to take a poll of a hundred random people in a street and ask them whether they believed universal salvation or eternal torment made the more sense how would you expect the majority outcome of that poll to be?
You have to take into account that ET really is a horribly despairing message whether you believe it to be true or not, most people would find the idea that an omnipotent God would torment for ever his own beings abhorrent, surely - on a realistic level and doctrinal differences aside - you can understand that?

 

[Aimiel]

My uncle, an adulterous drunk, one day, never having heard the gospel, was convicted of his sin and told that he needed to ask Jesus into his heart and life, to be forgiven of his sin. He cried for several hours in the solitude of an empty bedroom (his wife was at work and his daughter was at school) in repentance and was converted to the best example of a Christian that I've ever met, and I've met a lot of very good Christians. I believe his conversion to be a miracle, and that God can meet anyone who will seek and search for Him with all of their heart, as He promised that He would.

Uncle Ron was saved over thirty years ago, and his minstry is still going strong. He lives in Broken Arrow Oklahoma, and rents living space (including meals) to young Chrisitans who are attending Oral Roberts University or Rhema Bible Training Center. His daughter (who has now passed away) attended Rhema with Donna Douglas. He says that they still have to make up at least one new rule per year, to keep the boys in line. They have only ever rented space to boys, and have done so for over 20 years.

 

[red77]

To all that lives, God, men, animals even plants, they are dead. Suffering in eternal darkness, completely alone. That is not life, by any stretch. It is suffering in darkness, alone. It is what people think of, in their worst nightmare of what death is. Being conscious of what is happening to your body in the ground, as worms devour your flesh, under six feet of dirt would be a vacation compared to The Second Death. The only reason that we equate death with a lack of existence is because we are hampered from seeing the spirit realm by our physical bodies. When someone dies, it means they are either ushered into The Lord's Presence (believers) or they are judged guilty of sin and sent to hell. There is no annihilationism taught in The Word of God, and I have no idea where those who subscribe to it think that it is the least bit plausible, and those who believe universalism make even less sense, because they're perverting what is written.

How is ET plausible? most of this is your own supposition as well, at least annihilationism - along with universalism rids the universe of sin and the effects of sin, ET keeps sin 'alive' and well in the universe in the form of a pointless torture pit.....plausible? Is the idea of God being all in all plausible? Hmmmm, yes, but by your own doctrinal limitations you arent allowed to let yourself believe he can do it, there is no sense whatsoever in ET......

 

[Ecumenicist]

My uncle, an adulterous drunk, one day, never having heard the gospel, was convicted of his sin and told that he needed to ask Jesus into his heart and life, to be forgiven of his sin. He cried for several hours in the solitude of an empty bedroom (his wife was at work and his daughter was at school) in repentance and was converted to the best example of a Christian that I've ever met, and I've met a lot of very good Christians. I believe his conversion to be a miracle, and that God can meet anyone who will seek and search for Him with all of their heart, as He promised that He would.

Uncle Ron was saved over thirty years ago, and his minstry is still going strong. He lives in Broken Arrow Oklahoma, and rents living space (including meals) to young Chrisitans who are attending Oral Roberts University or Rhema Bible Training Center. His daughter (who has now passed away) attended Rhema with Donna Douglas. He says that they still have to make up at least one new rule per year, to keep the boys in line. They have only ever rented space to boys, and have done so for over 20 years.

This is a great testimony, thankyou.

It shows the power of accepting Christ here and now, because your uncle is
living the Kingdom, living the Promise, here and now. And, your uncle was
rescued from a living hell, in the here and now.

What do you think of Constantine's approach, based on ET theology? He
waited until on his death bed to be baptized and accept Christ.

 

[Redfin]

What do you think of Constantine's approach, based on ET theology? He waited until on his death bed to be baptized and accept Christ.

A penetrating question indeed. :think:

 

[Balder]

Nineveh, if by "your friend" you meant me when you were addressing Redfin, I should tell you that we've debated and discussed these things for years. I knew him well before discovering TOL. He has told me clearly what he thinks is the truth, and what it takes to be saved. I understand him. I don't agree with all of his beliefs, and he certainly doesn't agree with all of mine, but we respect each other. He doesn't have to tell me in every post what I should do or what he thinks is required for salvation. We understand each other well.

Redfin used to believe in eternal torment. I made the same arguments to him that I am making here now, arguing that universalism and annihilationism are clearly morally superior doctrines to eternal torment. He didn't buy my agruments at the time -- and I'm sure he still doesn't agree with my particular way of framing things -- but he did eventually end up embracing universalism, through his conversations with other Christians.

(Redfin, I hope you don't mind my speaking on your behalf here. Just trying to set the record straight, and to keep your good name from getting besmirched by mine... )

 

[Aimiel]

What do you think of Constantine's approach, based on ET theology? He waited until on his death bed to be baptized and accept Christ.

Another of my ancestors. His name tells it: Gaius Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus. My name is Ken Valerius. I think it is foolish, but thank God that I will get to meet him one day. A man my wife ministered to (the only friend he had for many a year, and who left his entire estate to her when he died) accepted Christ the day before he died. All the nurses commented on him being a 'changed man' because he had let go of all his bitterness and hatred. My wife said that he looked very peacful.

 

[Redfin]

(Redfin, I hope you don't mind my speaking on your behalf here. Just trying to set the record straight, and to keep your good name from getting besmirched by mine... )

No problem, Balder.

The honor of being associated with you far outweighs any potential besmirchment. :chuckle:

 

[Ecumenicist]

I can see where you would think that, after all, pagans are "good enough". And being washed in the Blood of the Lamb doesn't really account for a whole lot.

Blatant misrepresentation of everything that's been said.

, said the assistant methodist pastor.

Pathetic.

I knew you wouldn't get the point...

It's not me trying to take one example and making it mean something completely different than all the rest. Besides, it's you who continually finds inconsistencies.

I'm not making it mean anything, it says what it says. I'm asking what it means to
you. Wheat, chaff, winnowing fork, fire. Very simple.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Another of my ancestors. His name tells it: Gaius Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus. My name is Ken Valerius. I think it is foolish, but thank God that I will get to meet him one day. A man my wife ministered to (the only friend he had for many a year, and who left his entire estate to her when he died) accepted Christ the day before he died. All the nurses commented on him being a 'changed man' because he had let go of all his bitterness and hatred. My wife said that he looked very peacful.

I'm glad you thinkits foolish, we agree.

As a Universalist of sorts, I too will get to meet him some day, and I'll have a
few questions about his ruining the Christian faith to gain political control through
the RC Bishop, aka the Pope.

 

[Nineveh]

I am not defending anyone elses' ideas.

What a cop out. You will accept them backing you up, but neglect to correct them.

 

[Nineveh]

Nineveh, if by "your friend" you meant me

I'm not even sure what post you are addressing at this point but most likely not if it was theologically based.

 

[Nineveh]

Blatant misrepresentation of everything that's been said.

Here at TOL? Have you changed your beliefs? Or are you being shameful?

I'm not making it mean anything, it says what it says. I'm asking what it means to
you. Wheat, chaff, winnowing fork, fire. Very simple.

You aren't understaning it either, which is why you dodged earlier.

 

[PKevman]

I hate to repeat myself, but this whole big subject of God being to blame for people spending eternity in the Lake of Fire was not brought up by us. I will say again that those who do not know the name of Jesus Christ have just as much opportunity to be saved as anyone else. They are STILL saved ONLY in the name of Christ and salvation is found in no other name.

If a person is willing to humble himself truly before God and seek the Lord, God will make Himself and the way of salvation known to him. There are many, many people in remote places all over the world who have gotten saved from the ministry of missionaries preaching the gospel to them and their people after they had previously NEVER heard the name of Christ. I think this is a perfect illustration that those who seek God in truth will find Him and those who don't will not!

Further, another reason why Universalism is so wicked is because the Bible teaches that there is no other name given under Heaven by which a man can be saved. To affirm false religions is to affirm that people come to God based upon something other than the Lord Jesus Christ. Also, the Bible CLEARLY teaches that there is no sacrifice for sin for someone who has REJECTED the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. Spending an "age" or "ages" in a non-literal fire (which is ridiculous anyway to say it is non-literal), is NOT good enough to pay for one's sins. Only trusting in the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ and being washed by His blood will cleanse a man from sins.

Universalism is false teaching and is NOT Biblical. It is a twisting road of half-truths and misquoted or misinterpreted bible verses taken out of context.

Plainly put, Universalism=Spiritual Garbage=Man's Way

Gospel=Eternal life=Forgivenness of sins=God's Way

 

[Aimiel]

Very well-put, pastor. :thumb: