BRXII Battle talk

[PKevman]

Unfortunately, this is exactly the sort of evasive non-answer I expected.

My question is, if you could choose one or the other outcome, which one would you prefer?

Understandably, you don't want to answer it...

I have answered it, you just didn't like the answer. The outcome I would like is God's outcome. I don't know why you would call that an "evasive non-answer". God is more important to me than my own feelings.

And the other thing is that I HAVE made a choice between the two. I have chosen to follow the path to eternal life. That path is only found by entering the right gate. Jesus is the gate that leads to eternal life. Jesus is the way and the truth and the life. Anyone who does not enter through Him does not have and will not have eternal life.

You asked me if I could choose, which would I prefer, of course I would prefer to live forever in Heaven with God. That is why I chose to trust His way to get there!

 

[Ecumenicist]

Except we're talking about human beings who become baptized with His Holy Spirit, not wheat. All of the wheat would be destroyed if you put it in a fire. God's Presence doesn't destroy the wheat (Christians) only the chaff (un-believers). He is The One Who separates and divides between sheep and goats. He alone knows who is His and who isn't. The baptism of sheep in His Presence and the destruction of goats by fire are two different actions brought about by the same thing. God's Presence brings joy and fellowship to His sheep but swift and sure punishment to goats.

Again, I have to ask, are you aware that wheat and chaff are part of the same
plant in the field?

This particular scripture has nothing to do with sheep nor goats, nor wheat and
tares. It has to do with wheat and chaff.

Christ is the winnower who seperates the chaff from the wheat. The wheat
is saved and the chaff, the waste, the sins, are cast into the fire and
destroyed.

Plain reading. If sheep and goats were involved, they would eat the wheat,
and there would be an entirely different message. But they are not, not in
this text. Wheat, chaff, Christ, winnowing, fire. That's all.

 

[ebenz47037]

I would prefer that His Way should be what comes to pass, whether any human beings ever grasped enough of His Word to vaguely comprehend what that is or not. I want God to be True. He is. His Word describes what shall come to pass. Putting the 'spin' which you desire on That Word and then finding enough opinions or re-defining words until His Word becomes 'palateable' isn't Truth, it is foolishness. It is clear enough what God's Word says by reading It. The pile of teachers and re-defining of words that universalists go through to reach thier conclusions are plainly error and heresy. Their god isn't The Lord, it is their imaginary god that they've created in their imaginations that they worship. It is foolishness.

POTD! :first:

 

[Balder]

I have answered it, you just didn't like the answer. The outcome I would like is God's outcome. I don't know why you would call that an "evasive non-answer". God is more important to me than my own feelings.

And the other thing is that I HAVE made a choice between the two. I have chosen to follow the path to eternal life. That path is only found by entering the right gate. Jesus is the gate that leads to eternal life. Jesus is the way and the truth and the life. Anyone who does not enter through Him does not have and will not have eternal life.

You asked me if I could choose, which would I prefer, of course I would prefer to live forever in Heaven with God. That is why I chose to trust His way to get there!

Okay, so you can't see where you're being evasive. I asked you to choose A or B. I guess your answer is B? Do you think that's a more satisfying resolution -- morally, emotionally, and spiritually?

 

[PKevman]

Okay, so you can't see where you're being evasive. I asked you to choose A or B. I guess your answer is B? Do you think that's a more satisfying resolution -- morally, emotionally, and spiritually?

God's way is more satisfying morally, emotionally, and spiritually. Man's way satisfies man's temporary desires. When all of eternity unfolds and sinners are gone from our presence we will not miss sin for even a moment. We will be rejoicing for all eternity if we know the Lord because WE who trusted Him and His way were forgiven of a debt we could never pay ourselves!

 

[Balder]

God's way is more satisfying morally, emotionally, and spiritually. Man's way satisfies man's temporary desires. When all of eternity unfolds and sinners are gone from our presence we will not miss sin for even a moment. We will be rejoicing for all eternity if we know the Lord because WE who trusted Him and His way were forgiven of a debt we could never pay ourselves!

Notice what you're saying here. You said you will not miss "sin" for a moment, after speaking about sinners being gone from your presense. Will you miss the sinners -- many of whom you will have probably known and loved? Or will you be too busy having fun in heaven to worry about those "other people" (the secret in the basement) who are spending eternity in a condition of conscious, embodied torment?

 

[PKevman]

Notice what you're saying here. You said you will not miss "sin" for a moment, after speaking about sinners being gone from your presense. Will you miss the sinners -- many of whom you will have probably known and loved? Or will you be too busy having fun in heaven to worry about those "other people" (the secret in the basement) who are spending eternity in a condition of conscious, embodied torment?

Finite vs. Infinite:

When you try to reason eternal things from an earthly perspective they
make little sense. There will be no more sadness or crying in Heaven.
IF we had a loved one who did not accept Christ and we KNEW they were in
the Lake of Fire for all eternity, then that would make it difficult for us to never
cry. This is no reason to junk what the Bible teaches on the destination of
unbelievers. This is one of the main reasons why I believe that when we cease
to cry, our memories of those loved ones will be wiped clean and we will
remember them no more. You say how can you say such a horrible thing?
Very simple, you have to understand what Heaven is going to be like.

Loving relationships beyond our wildest imagination!

Imagine the greatest relationship or friendship you ever had. The deepest love
you ever had. That love will pale in comparison to the love we Christians have
for one another and for our God in Heaven and we will experience this unprecedented
love for ALL ETERNITY with EVERYONE of our BROTHERS AND SISTERS in
Christ! I think the Lake of Fire is somewhere that we will not be able to see
it, but even if we did it would only stand as a reminder that we deserved to go
there because of our sin and rebellion against God, but Christ paid the penalty for
us so that we don't have to go there.

Wisdom of Man vs. the Wisdom of God:

Proverbs 14:12 12 There is a way that seems right to a
man, But its end is the way of death.

I encourage you to stop trying to reason things from a man's perspective
and reason from God's perspective. God is holy and righteous. God is
eternal. God's holiness and righteousness requires eternal payment for sin.
All sin is rebellion against God. When we lie, it is against God. When
we steal, it is against God. When we lust, it is against God. That sin and that
rebellion have separated us from a perfect and holy God. Because God is eternal,
so are the consequences.

In God's image: ETERNAL!

God created man in His image. An eternal being. Man became a living soul and
that living soul will live forever someplace. Either WITH God or away from Him.
Every man has a choice and God is not to blame if they reject Him. God
did everything to make the way out for man's sin and for the death penalty that
stands against him because of that sin.

God made a way:

God sent His own Son, Jesus Christ, born of a virgin. Jesus lived a sinless
life even though He was tempted in every way that we are. That sinless and perfect
life was sacrificed on OUR BEHALF on the cross of Calvary. This was NO
ORDINARY sacrifice. This was the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, God
Himself in the form of a man. An eternal being making the payment
for an eternal sentence. The eternal God proved Himself by rising from the
dead and proving His complete power over death!

The requirement:

Now the whole caveat if you will is that only those who repent of their sins
and accept Christ as Lord and Savior can receive those wonderful benefits.
This is the subject of the entire Bible, the Word of God. God wrote HIS loveletter
to man. When we read His Word we find Him. When we accept HIS WAY
to enter into the perfect Heaven that HE CREATED and that belongs to HIM,
then we can look forward to a wonderful eternity that the Bible says is beyond
anything we could ever imagine.

Just Believe!

I for one don't have to doubt God in the least for any reason because I take Him
at His Word and He has already changed my life and given me the Holy Spirit.
The Spirit Himself is in my life and has impacted my life beyond belief!

Praise the Lord because He is good!

 

[Balder]

So, Kevin, you are willing to be given a kind of lobotomy so that you won't have to think about what God has done to so many human beings and have that knowledge mar your enjoyment?

 

[Aimiel]

My question is, if you could choose one or the other outcome, which one would you prefer?

Understandably, you don't want to answer it...

Obviously, we've chosen the outcome we prefer. Not only do we want to go to Heaven, but we want to deliver ourselves from being punished for not warning others when we have the chance to. You want us to say that we think hell is too great a punishment (eternal torment) for one lifetime of sins. OK. I'll say it. It is. In my mind. But I'm not God, and I won't second-guess Him or judge Him without knowing all the facts. The facts that I am given are these: hell is real; Jesus offers to save me from hell; I don't want to go there: I choose Jesus (actually He has chosen me). That is what we're talking about, because that's what we know. We don't know the reason that God decided to create hell to punish demons with, and then allowed men to fall into the same pit through temptation. One day we will, but why wait until you're shoes are on fire to do something about the flames?

 

[PKevman]

So, Kevin, you are willing to be given a kind of lobotomy so that you won't have to think about what God has done to so many human beings and have that knowledge mar your enjoyment?

Yeah that's really what I said? Heaven is far more than enjoyment. It is eternity in a place far greater and more wonderful than anything we have ever seen or could imagine. That is why sin could never enter it because it would no longer be that wonderful perfect place.

Again my answer to you was very clear. God is not to blame for people who reject Him and His way. You want to blame God because people reject Him. Who do you think you are to shake your fist at the Almighty? Who do you think you are to tell God what His standards must be? God sent His own Son to die for you and your sins. If you reject that there is no hope for you or anyone.

"What God has done to so many human beings" is false theology and that is why these questions are flawed. It is not new either. The Universalists use it often too. Try to make you pick between the two outcomes and say that you would rather believe that everyone going to Heaven is really the better outcome of the two, and then say "By the way its possible". Then they introduce you to Universalism.

It is impossible for everyone to be saved because the Bible says they won't be. The Bible says there will be those whose names are not written in the Book of Life. The Bible says that Satan and the fallen angels are cast into the Lake of Fire along with all the other unrepentant wicked. The Bible says they will be there for all eternity in torment day and night. The Bible says these things. Men try to change or deny them because they want to craft a way of salvation that is good to THEM without having to humble themselves and do things God's way.

The Bible has always been shown to be right over time. Sometime study the prophecies fulfilled in the Bible and then understand that all of the things the Bible says is going to happen in the future are going to happen like the Bible says they will. I don't really care who disagrees with God's Word I will always believe in God's Word and what it says. You can call me close-minded. You can call me a "Mean old ET Pastor" I don't care. I worship the Creator and not His creations.

 

[PKevman]

Job 31:2-4
For what is the allotment of God from above, And the inheritance of the Almighty from on high? 3 Is it not destruction for the wicked, And disaster for the workers of iniquity?

 

[Balder]

Pastor Kevin, if God raises the dead and gives them all imperishable bodies, and then sends some of them (lots of them) into a Lake of Fire where they will suffer forever in these imperishable bodies, with no hope of escape, no chance for repentance or reformation once the sentence has been laid down, then it is certainly fair to say that God is doing this to them. There are any number of ways God COULD have done things; he didn't HAVE to give people imperishable bodies that appear to be expressly designed to endure an eternity of torment and punishment. But he did (in your view, and many other Christians' views). That is something you've got to live with.

And I guess it takes having amnesia in heaven to live with it.

 

[PKevman]

Jesus said:

John 5:28-29
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

 

[PKevman]

Pastor Kevin, if God raises the dead and gives them all imperishable bodies, and then sends some of them (lots of them) into a Lake of Fire where they will suffer forever in these imperishable bodies, with no hope of escape, no chance for repentance or reformation once the sentence has been laid down, then it is certainly fair to say that God is doing this to them. There are any number of ways God COULD have done things; he didn't HAVE to give people imperishable bodies that appear to be expressly designed to endure an eternity of torment and punishment. But he did (in your view, and many other Christians' views). That is something you've got to live with.

And I guess it takes having amnesia in heaven to live with it.

Why do people find it so hard to understand. Ok let me ask you a question. My wife turns on a burner and says that burner is hot. Do not put your hand on the burner or it will burn you. I put my hand on the burner and burn the tar out of my hand. Whose doggone fault is it?????????????

 

[PKevman]

Do I blame her for turning on the burner?

 

[logos_x]

Actually...everything said in the last 12 posts are things that a believer in Universal Salvation would agree with. The only exception is that Hell is eternal, it is rather...a part of the process some will go through and not an end in itself. I have presented scriptural and historical evidence in support of this belief. No one is saying that anyone should wait until our shoes are on fire to do something about the flames...the issue is if one is in the flames is there no hope at all, and it really isn't very good news if you say there isn't any if you are talking to someone who has lost someone they love that they are sure God didn't save.

If Christian universalism was teaching "wait and see" then you would have an argument. But we don't teach anything like that.


It's more like...since we know Christ will bring everything into subjection to Himself...why wait at all.

 

[PKevman]

A town mayor decides to build a prison for those who have done evil and to deter crime. So they build the prison. Men get put in there for committing evil crimes. Is it the mayor's fault that they commited those crimes? Yes or no?

 

[PKevman]

Actually...everything said in the last 12 posts are things that a believer in Universal Salvation would agree with. The only exception is that Hell is eternal, it is rather...a part of the process some will go through and not an end in itself. I have presented scriptural and historical evidence in support of this belief. No one is saying that anyone should wait until our shoes are on fire do do something about the flames...the issue is if one is in the flames is there no hope at all, and it really isn't very good news if you say there isn't any if you are talking to someone who has lost someone they love that they are sure God didn't save.

If Christian universalism was teaching "wait and see" then you would have an argument. But we don't teach anything like that.


It's more like...since we know Christ will bring everything into subjection to Himself...why wait at all.

Stephen did you lose someone? I ask this in all sincerity my friend. I would just like to know. You can PM me your answer if you don't want to say it here.

 

[PKevman]

the issue is if one is in the flames is there no hope at all, and it really isn't very good news if you say there isn't any if you are talking to someone who has lost someone they love that they are sure God didn't save.

I don't know how many times I have said this is the very heart of Universalism right here. Not the Word of God. This.

 

[Balder]

Kevin, this analogy is more appropriate. A scientist has a daughter. He tells her that if she misbehaves, he's going to throw her in the furnace out back, which he built for incinerating rodents and such, but which he has decided to use for disobedient children as well. The child eventually does misbehave and her father tosses her into the incinerator. She cries out, "Dad! It's not fair! Why are you doing this?" He says, "Well, it's your fault. I warned you." She responds, "Yes, but you could have come up with any number of punishments, any number of ways to deal with my disobedience, but you chose to use this furnace; you lit the fire; you are throwing me, alive, into it. How could you?"