BRXII Battle talk

[logos_x]

If Christian Universalism taught that, I would be at your side Nin, denouncing it with all my strength.

It does not teach that. :nono:

...Which by now should be obvious.

In fact...most of the objections on this thread to Christian Universalism are directed at things it does not teach in the first place....have you noticed?

 

[Aimiel]

In the process of being baptized with fire, the chaff is seperated from the wheat and burned up. Just like in being baptized with water, one is cleansed. Its pretty simple.

Except we're talking about human beings who become baptized with His Holy Spirit, not wheat. All of the wheat would be destroyed if you put it in a fire. God's Presence doesn't destroy the wheat (Christians) only the chaff (un-believers). He is The One Who separates and divides between sheep and goats. He alone knows who is His and who isn't. The baptism of sheep in His Presence and the destruction of goats by fire are two different actions brought about by the same thing. God's Presence brings joy and fellowship to His sheep but swift and sure punishment to goats.

 

[logos_x]

But...both the sheep and the goats belong to the shepherd. Unending punishment for the goats that accomplishes nothing for the goats would be abuse of the goats....something a shepherd, if he is a good one, would not be interested in doing in the first place.

The sheep and the goats are valuable...He isn't seperating them because he hates goats.

 

[Aimiel]

If you had your druthers, which view would you PREFER to be correct?

I would prefer that His Way should be what comes to pass, whether any human beings ever grasped enough of His Word to vaguely comprehend what that is or not. I want God to be True. He is. His Word describes what shall come to pass. Putting the 'spin' which you desire on That Word and then finding enough opinions or re-defining words until His Word becomes 'palateable' isn't Truth, it is foolishness. It is clear enough what God's Word says by reading It. The pile of teachers and re-defining of words that universalists go through to reach thier conclusions are plainly error and heresy. Their god isn't The Lord, it is their imaginary god that they've created in their imaginations that they worship. It is foolishness.

 

[Redfin]

...Which by now should be obvious.

In fact...most of the objections on this thread to Christian Universalism are directed at things it does not teach in the first place....have you noticed?

From the very begining. :bang: :think:

 

[logos_x]

I would prefer that His Way should be what comes to pass, whether any human beings ever grasped enough of His Word to vaguely comprehend what that is or not. I want God to be True. He is. His Word describes what shall come to pass. Putting the 'spin' which you desire on That Word and then finding enough opinions or re-defining words until His Word becomes 'palateable' isn't Truth, it is foolishness. It is clear enough what God's Word says by reading It. The pile of teachers and re-defining of words that universalists go through to reach thier conclusions are plainly error and heresy. Their god isn't The Lord, it is their imaginary god that they've created in their imaginations that they worship. It is foolishness.

Except...WE aren't the ones that re-defined words.

 

[Aimiel]

The sheep and the goats are valuable...He isn't seperating them because he hates goats.

Quite right. He loves every soul who's ever lived with the same un-fathomable love that He offers to all. Not all will accept it, though, will they? To the goats, He will say, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not." It isn't His hatred that causes Him to separate and to punish for eternity, it is His intolerance of sin. Everyone whose name is not found in The Lamb's Book of Life will be accurssed, eternally. It is their sin which they are punished for, not God's feelings.

 

[Aimiel]

Except...WE aren't the ones that re-defined words.

So then, what is the argument? The one who go to the Lake of Fire will be tormented for eternity, right? Not for aeons or ages upon ages, but forever and ever.

 

[logos_x]

Quite right. He loves every soul who's ever lived with the same un-fathomable love that He offers to all. Not all will accept it, though, will they? To the goats, He will say, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not." It isn't His hatred that causes Him to separate and to punish for eternity, it is His intolerance of sin. Everyone whose name is not found in The Lamb's Book of Life will be accurssed, eternally. It is their sin which they are punished for, not God's feelings.

:sigh:

I give up.

 

[logos_x]

So then, what is the argument? The one who go to the Lake of Fire will be tormented for eternity, right? Not for aeons or ages upon ages, but forever and ever.

nope. the original word is eons.

 

[Aimiel]

nope. the original word is eons.

So you believe that people who will be tortured for thousands of years will then want to go to Heaven or will then be 'acceptable' in Heaven?

 

[Aimiel]

:sigh:

I give up.

You give up fighting against The Word of God, you give up fighting orthodoxy or you give up trying to convert me to your heresies?

 

[Balder]

So you believe that people who will be tortured for thousands of years will then want to go to Heaven or will then be 'acceptable' in Heaven?

Interesting. When I, as a pagan, criticize Christians for believing that some beings are going to be tortured for eternity, they will quickly and defensively point out that I'm twisting things and no "torture" is involved.

But here I see a Christian eternal damnationist using that word.

Perhaps people just "hide" the truth of their beliefs from pagans like me and even from themselves when confronted with the monstrosity of their beliefs, but then the truth leaks out when they aren't being so vigilant.....

 

[PKevman]

The pagan in the theology site agreeing with false doctrine...

Nineveh you're rolling! :up:

 

[PKevman]

So...changing the meaning of eon is what it takes to believe in "eternal" torment.

So......changing the meaning of eternal is what it takes to believe in "age-during" torment.

 

[PKevman]

Aionion life, and aionion chastisment, Nin...if you really want to be exact.

No that would be INexact actually. Aionion is one language and life and chastisement are another language...........

 

[PKevman]

Just a curiosity question for Nin, PastorK, Aimiel, and others who believe in the eternal torment doctrine:

We don't believe the "eternal torment doctrine" we believe the Bible.

If you had your druthers, which view would you PREFER to be correct? Which would strike you as the better, more morally, emotionally, and spiritually satisfying result?

The one that God says is right. I would rather believe an unpleasant truth than to be deluded into believing a lie. Wouldn't you?

A) God brings all beings to his breast -- some directly, and some through the fire, but all coming eventually to be cleaned out and made perfect for him, to serve him and rejoice with him forever?

B) God gives sinners (the majority of humanity) indestructable bodies and leaves them all to a fate of eternal conscious torment?

I expect some will say, "It doesn't matter what I think...," and maybe ultimately that is true, but I am still interested in hearing which scenario you, personally, would prefer

You are right. It doesn't matter what I think. It doesn't matter what Universalists think. It doesn't matter what ANYONE thinks. What matters is what God says. We cannot force the Word of God to mean whatever we want it to mean, even if it says something that we THINK is unpleasant. We have finite pea-sized brains compared to the Mind of God.

 

[PKevman]

...Which by now should be obvious.

In fact...most of the objections on this thread to Christian Universalism are directed at things it does not teach in the first place....have you noticed?

As are those directed at Bible believing Christians.

 

[PKevman]

I would prefer that His Way should be what comes to pass, whether any human beings ever grasped enough of His Word to vaguely comprehend what that is or not. I want God to be True. He is. His Word describes what shall come to pass. Putting the 'spin' which you desire on That Word and then finding enough opinions or re-defining words until His Word becomes 'palateable' isn't Truth, it is foolishness. It is clear enough what God's Word says by reading It. The pile of teachers and re-defining of words that universalists go through to reach thier conclusions are plainly error and heresy. Their god isn't The Lord, it is their imaginary god that they've created in their imaginations that they worship. It is foolishness.

Wow and I do mean wow! Aimiel this is TRUTHSMACKING! :up:

 

[Balder]

We don't believe the "eternal torment doctrine" we believe the Bible.



The one that God says is right. I would rather believe an unpleasant truth than to be deluded into believing a lie. Wouldn't you?



You are right. It doesn't matter what I think. It doesn't matter what Universalists think. It doesn't matter what ANYONE thinks. What matters is what God says. We cannot force the Word of God to mean whatever we want it to mean, even if it says something that we THINK is unpleasant. We have finite pea-sized brains compared to the Mind of God.

Unfortunately, this is exactly the sort of evasive non-answer I expected.

My question is, if you could choose one or the other outcome, which one would you prefer?

Understandably, you don't want to answer it...