And it's my contention that the reason people don't respond is because God has yet to complete His work on their hearts. I don't see any other way to reconcile that fact that God loves us with a love greater than any love man could ever dream up (evidenced by the giving of His Son to pay the price for our sins), and the fact that left to ourselves we would never respond appropriately to God. As you correctly pointed out, "...salvaion is gift from and a work of God." so if someone isn't saved it has to be that God has yet to perform that work. To suggest that God will never perform that work in someone's heart would mean God chose not to save that particular individual. But the scriptures clearly say that God loves the whole world and Christ died for the sins of the whole world. Would God go to such great lengths so as to send His Son to suffer so greatly to pay the penalty for sin, just to go and choose not to complete His work on the hearts of sinners by bringing them to faith? I don't see it.CabinetMaker said:
BRXII Battle talk
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Then you should look more closely at scripture God Himself, in teh form of Jesus, states very clearly that People will go to the second death in the lake of fire. In the Calvinist view, God does choose who will go to heaven and who will go to the second death. In this view, God plainly does not save every one. In the open view, we pla a part in our salvation. God works in out heart but some people will refuse to believe, the will refuse to surender their illusion of control over their life to God.dale said:
Take off your rose colored glasses and take real look.dale said:
logos_x
New member
CabinetMaker said:
There are terrible judgements in the Bible. I believe in all of them.
The issue is whether any of thse judgements permanently cut people off from the thing that would save them, and does so forever.
You failed to address that last question...that the only way there could possibly be eternal torment is if man is immortal regardless of one's relationship with God?
Where do they obtain their immortality?
When they are raised to judgement during the end timeslogos_x said:
Yes, lets. People are raised to judgement. Some are in the book of life, some are not. Those that are, go with Jesus, those that are not go to the second death.logos_x said:
Born => Live => Die => Raised to Eternal Life => Judgement => Eternity
logos_x
New member
CabinetMaker said:
Well, ...what is the tree of life all about, then?
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
(Gen 3:22-24 KJV)
Then he showed me the river of the Water of Life, bright as crystal, issuing from the throne of God and of the Lamb. On either side of the river, midway between it and the main street of the city, was the Tree of Life. It produced twelve kinds of fruit, yielding a fresh crop month by month, and the leaves of the tree served as medicine for the nations. "In future there will be no curse," he said, "but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in that city. And His servants will render Him holy service and will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will be no night there; and they have no need of lamplight or sunlight, for the Lord God will shine upon them, and they will be kings until the Ages of the Ages." And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the Prophets, sent His angel to make known to His servants the things which must soon happen. 'I am coming quickly.' Blessed is he who is mindful of the predictions contained in this book."
"Make no secret," he added, "of the meaning of the predictions contained in this book; for the time for their fulfillment is now close at hand. Let the dishonest man act dishonestly still; let the filthy make himself filthy still; let the righteous practise righteousness still; and let the holy be made holy still."
"I am coming quickly; and My reward is with Me, that I may requite every man in accordance with what his conduct has been. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes clean, that they may have a right to the Tree of Life, and may go through the gates into the city. The unclean are shut out, and so are all who practise magic, all fornicators, all murderers, and those who worship idols, and every one who loves falsehood and tells lies.
"I Jesus have sent My angel for him solemnly to declare these things to you among the Churches. I am the Root and the offspring of David, the bright Morning Star. The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come;' and whoever hears, let him say, 'Come;' and let those who are thirsty come. Whoever will, let him take the Water of Life, without payment.
(Rev 22:1-7; 22:10-17 WNT)
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
(Gen 3:22-24 KJV)
Then he showed me the river of the Water of Life, bright as crystal, issuing from the throne of God and of the Lamb. On either side of the river, midway between it and the main street of the city, was the Tree of Life. It produced twelve kinds of fruit, yielding a fresh crop month by month, and the leaves of the tree served as medicine for the nations. "In future there will be no curse," he said, "but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in that city. And His servants will render Him holy service and will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. And there will be no night there; and they have no need of lamplight or sunlight, for the Lord God will shine upon them, and they will be kings until the Ages of the Ages." And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the Prophets, sent His angel to make known to His servants the things which must soon happen. 'I am coming quickly.' Blessed is he who is mindful of the predictions contained in this book."
"Make no secret," he added, "of the meaning of the predictions contained in this book; for the time for their fulfillment is now close at hand. Let the dishonest man act dishonestly still; let the filthy make himself filthy still; let the righteous practise righteousness still; and let the holy be made holy still."
"I am coming quickly; and My reward is with Me, that I may requite every man in accordance with what his conduct has been. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes clean, that they may have a right to the Tree of Life, and may go through the gates into the city. The unclean are shut out, and so are all who practise magic, all fornicators, all murderers, and those who worship idols, and every one who loves falsehood and tells lies.
"I Jesus have sent My angel for him solemnly to declare these things to you among the Churches. I am the Root and the offspring of David, the bright Morning Star. The Spirit and the Bride say, 'Come;' and whoever hears, let him say, 'Come;' and let those who are thirsty come. Whoever will, let him take the Water of Life, without payment.
(Rev 22:1-7; 22:10-17 WNT)
And what about what Paul said about the end...?
Later on, comes the End, when He is to surrender the Kingship to God, the Father, when He shall have overthrown all other government and all other authority and power. For He must continue King until He shall have put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that is to be overthrown is Death; for He will have put all things in subjection under His feet. And when He shall have declared that "All things are in subjection," it will be with the manifest exception of Him who has reduced them all to subjection to Him. But when the whole universe has been made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also become subject to Him who has made the universe subject to Him, in order that GOD may be all in all.
(1Co 15:24-28 WNT)
(1Co 15:24-28 WNT)
You have God raising the dead and doing something very much different...and undoing what He did in the beginning in PREVENTING man living forever without Him, in a very bad way.
Aimiel
Well-known member
The Tree of Life is The Word of God, Who gave Himself, from everlasting, for our redemption. The Leaves of That Tree are for the healing of the nations. He is The Fountain of Life, from Whom all life flows. The ones who are redeemed return That Life to Him in worship, in service and for all eternity. He reaps more than He sowed. He sowed one (Adam) and reaped millions. Whatever He does prospers in what He purposes.
Have you ever looked at how death is defeated? What about the other enemies of God? Why wouldn't they be defeated the same way death, and the Devil, are?logos_x said:
Cast into the lake of fire, are they not?logos_x said:
logos_x said:
NIV said:
I searched ans searched and could find no verse or mention of the second death being over come by life.
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