Brexit

[andyc]

I'm hearing some news about buyers remorse from some Leavers. They were promised that EU money would be distriubuted elsewhere, like healthcare, but now Leave leaders are backpedaling.

This not really true, and it's how the pro EU crowd like to smear the entire Brexit campaign.

There were two main campaigning camps who were not actually cooperating together. One campaign was led by Nigel Farage as leader of the UKIP party, and the other led by Boris Johnson who are Conservatives wanting out of the EU.
It was the campaign led by Boris Johnson who said the EU Money would be used to help fund the NHS, but a breakfast TV presenter asked the UKIP leader Farage if he would spend the EU money on the NHS. When he didn't say yes, the leave campaign was accused of lying.

 

[Desert Reign]

In what way? The don't have debt like those countries.

The SNP have responded stupidly. They need to shut up, and take a timeout to think things over.
Scotland cant join the EU until they first leave the UK, and that won't happen until the people vote for it in a referendum, which they won't get for while. And they themselves don't know how the Scots as a whole feel about it, especially joining the Euro which is sinking nations like Scotland.
If they just accepted it for the time being, they will probably be better off in the UK liberated from Brussels. But if they still wanted to destroy their country in the EU, they can go ahead and do it.

Ha, ha!
If they left the UK, they would immediately have a proportionate share of the UK national debt.
They would have to negotiate that with the UK's creditors because the UK will certainly not let them off scot free by guaranteeing their debt. It would be equivalent to about £25k per person.

 

[kmoney]

This not really true, and it's how the pro EU crowd like to smear the entire Brexit campaign.

There were two main campaigning camps who were not actually cooperating together. One campaign was led by Nigel Farage as leader of the UKIP party, and the other led by Boris Johnson who are Conservatives wanting out of the EU.
It was the campaign led by Boris Johnson who said the EU Money would be used to help fund the NHS, but a breakfast TV presenter asked the UKIP leader Farage if he would spend the EU money on the NHS. When he didn't say yes, the leave campaign was accused of lying.

Hmm, I didn't realize there was a difference like that within the Leave side. The interview I heard did not mention that.
Regardless, there are some upset Leave voters, depending on which side they were listening to I guess.

 

[kmoney]

American culture is a melting pot of many cultures & always has been, that overtime mixed with our national values defined by our constitution & laws becomes one homogeneous culture which is America. It is important that everybody belongs in a healthy, diverse national culture, I absolutely detest the labels that the progressive left has given to different people like Mexican American, African American, Asian American, etc. these are just dividing points because what we should all be touting is that we are all Americans regardless of our race, national origin, religion, etc...there is no value added in separation & division except to form factions that in-fight against each other. However we as national society/culture should be able to oppose cultures that are incompatible with our own understanding that we as a people can & should reject any other culture that is dangerous to our own, that is not racism or bigotry, it is survival of a healthy nation/society/culture, take your pick but, they are intertwined together. If you would have read any of the articles I have posted on the subject maybe you would understand why creating individual sub-cultural sects without uniting all our cultural differences without labels under one national culture has made our society unhealthy and more divided.

Based on that it sounds like you are basing 'American' on our constitution and laws? So, between that and your other posts to eider one example of what you're against is Sharia law, or I assume any other group that would seek to have some laws of their own.
Do you have any other examples of what opposes 'American' culture?

Regarding labels like Mexican-American etc....I think it would depend on how it's being used. It could simply mean a sub-group in voting that has particular interests.

 

[kmoney]

I'll give you an example, the Cinco de Mayo celebrations in America. In Mexico Cinco De Mayo is a minor celebration mostly in Puebla. Yet, here it's celebrated like it's the 4th of July. And it irritates me that so Mexican-Americans seem to worship the Mexican flag. I find it hilarious that so many Mexican-Americans love the Mexican flag yet were born in America and have never even been to Mexico! :rotfl: It makes them look retarded IMO. If they love the Mexican flag so much why don't they go live in Mexico? :think:

If they have a shallow love for Mexico then it would be hard to take it seriously. :chuckle: But I don't think that means having some sort of Cinco de Mayo celebration is necessarily bad.

 

[The Berean]

If they have a shallow love for Mexico then it would be hard to take it seriously. :chuckle: But I don't think that means having some sort of Cinco de Mayo celebration is necessarily bad.

There's nothing wrong with celebrating Cinco De Mayo per se. But why would American born people want to celebrate another nation's flag that they have never visited even once. It makes no sense wahtsoever.

 

[rexlunae]

The SNP have responded stupidly. They need to shut up, and take a timeout to think things over.
Scotland cant join the EU until they first leave the UK, and that won't happen until the people vote for it in a referendum, which they won't get for while. And they themselves don't know how the Scots as a whole feel about it, especially joining the Euro which is sinking nations like Scotland.
If they just accepted it for the time being, they will probably be better off in the UK liberated from Brussels. But if they still wanted to destroy their country in the EU, they can go ahead and do it.

If Nicola Sturgeon is smart, what she'll do is hold a referendum authorizing her to negotiate for Scottish independence contingent on the Brexit. That would set up a choice between Europe and Britain, but would allow them to stay in the UK if they figure out how to stop Brexit.

 

[Desert Reign]

I am tired of this subject. Brits mind everyone's business, and gets mad whenever someone is in theirs. Nothing new under the sun.

If you're tired of it, why say anything at all?
Not that what you say is even remotely accurate, or perhaps you think it is just random insult?

Nice signature :AMR:
None of that is even remotely accurate. Is it what you actually think or is it just random insult

If you ask nicely I would be happy to explain but since you can't seem to ask anything nicely, I shan't be bothered. Or you could join the open theology forum and,being mindful of its rules, find answers and ask more questions there

 

[Desert Reign]

I was referring to the Scotland independence vote from two years ago. That was 55/45. The Scottish Remain vote on the Brexit was 62%, and it had the overwhelming majority support of every part of Scotland.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36616028



You're referring to Nicola Sturgeon, I assume? Her attitude seems to reflect a majority of her country.



One could argue it wasn't in the UK's interests to hold a vote on EU membership. That didn't stop them. These are the circumstances for you to consider, as I see it:

1. Two years ago, nearly half of Scotland wanted independence from the UK. And that was with David Cameron promising them all sorts of new devolved rights, which he won't be able to make good on from here, so whatever they think they got out of voting to stay, they better be content with it.
2. As of last week, Scotland supported Britain remaining in the EU nearly 2 to 1.
3. Either of these changes, an independent Scotland or a Brexit, would have represented a significant material departure from the status quo for Scotland, with significant potential economic downsides either way. But one of them is now as certain as anything can be by a vote.
4. If the Brexit plan is carried through, the economic argument for Scotland to try to stay in the EU could easily tip against them remaining in the UK. The UK economy is big, but the EU is bigger.

This Brexit plan has been a case of England going alone. England represents the vast majority of the UK population, so they can dominate the vote for the UK as a whole, but outside England and Wales, it's pretty unpopular. So Scotland and Northern Ireland are being driven down a path they didn't choose and don't like, unheeded by their sister countries, and for the moment, powerless to stop it. What was it that the English didn't like about the EU, again?

I'm not really bothered if Scotland stay with us or go. If they go, at least it will get rid of that loud-mouthed poser.

 

[rocketman]

which is, of course, just another way of calling rocketdude a racist

That too is a favorite label lefties , don't understand, and use, very loosely. :chuckle:

 

[CherubRam]

The Netherlands is in contention about this. I understand that Germany has underpinned the Netherlands financially and therefore has some degree of control over the Netrherlands. That's just hearsay, but it is probably correct.

Marine le Penn, Leader of the French Right-Wing party, similar to our National Front, has always argued that a French exit is possible, and always has been shouted down. Just now she is grinning from ear to ear and talking about a Frexit.

The Czechs are murmuring about an exit. A wag on another forum hasd coined the term 'Czechout'.

Rumor has it that it cost more to stay in the EU than what they get in return. The only ones that prosper from the EU is the Elite. Some how it involves cheap labor which increases the wealth of the rich.

 

[Totton Linnet]

If Nicola Sturgeon is smart, what she'll do is hold a referendum authorizing her to negotiate for Scottish independence contingent on the Brexit. That would set up a choice between Europe and Britain, but would allow them to stay in the UK if they figure out how to stop Brexit.

It is a mistake to believe that Sturgeon or the SNP are truly representatives of the Scottish people, Scotland is Labour, but Labour has for at least 20 years been moving ever closer to the hated Tories.

The SNP are a protest vote against Labour....both Sturgeon and Salmond before her are chancers....Alex Salmond is by far the wilier of the two.

They lost their overall majority at the last election and their majority had been large.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Spain will never allow Scotland into the EU....they have Catalonia trying to force independance

 

[jgarden]

In my humble opinion the UK and the EU should be able to reach an accommodation concerning the numbers of immigrants entering the country which, as I understand it, was the major concern of those who voted to leave.

Given that the UK was able to retain its own monetary system instead of changing to the Euro when it joined the EU, it would be in the best interests of both sides to make the necessary concessions for the greater good.

As it stands, the UK now runs the additional risk of losing Northern Ireland and Scotland, both of which voted overwhelmingly in favor to stay in the EU.

 

[Desert Reign]

If Nicola Sturgeon is smart, what she'll do is hold a referendum authorizing her to negotiate for Scottish independence contingent on the Brexit. That would set up a choice between Europe and Britain, but would allow them to stay in the UK if they figure out how to stop Brexit.

You mean, you are smart and she will be smart if she does what you think? C'mon seriously! You are way off here and just guessing without knowledge of how the UK works. The EU will not even begin negotiations on Scottish membership until the UK has left the EU and the Scots have left the UK such that the EU would be clear as to what they were taking on. And as I have said before, Scotland would not be allowed to use the pound as a currency, and they would have to fork out their share of the UK national debt. It's a recipe for another Greece.

As it stands, the UK now runs the additional risk of losing Northern Ireland and Scotland, both of which voted overwhelmingly in favor to stay in the EU.

I don't see what the risk to the UK is of NI and Scotland leaving. NI is quite particular and I doubt you will get much support for leaving the UK, even if they did vote remain. Voting in or out of the EU is not the same as voting in or out of the UK. The ballot paper was clear 'Should Great Britain leave/remain in the EU?' I'm getting a little tired of repeating this.

 

[eider]

...................The EU will not even begin negotiations on Scottish membership until the UK has left the EU and the Scots have left the UK such that the EU would be clear as to what they were taking on. And as I have said before, Scotland would not be allowed to use the pound as a currency, and they would have to fork out their share of the UK national debt. It's a recipe for another Greece.

I reckon that ^^^ is a good assessment of the situation now, and to come. But I do reckon that Scotland will win independance within a year. I wonder whether it could keep its Scottish Pound?

I don't see what the risk to the UK is of NI and Scotland leaving. NI is quite particular and I doubt you will get much support for leaving the UK, even if they did vote remain. Voting in or out of the EU is not the same as voting in or out of the UK. The ballot paper was clear 'Should Great Britain leave/remain in the EU?' I'm getting a little tired of repeating this.

Northern Ireland could erupt over all of this. Martin McGuiness was murmuring about closer ties with Eire this week, and what that might mean for Protestants.......

 

[gcthomas]

And as I have said before, Scotland would not be allowed to use the pound as a currency, and they would have to fork out their share of the UK national debt. It's a recipe for another Greece.

I agree with all your other points well made in your post, but I think this is wrong. There is no way to stop an independent Scotland using the pound as its currency, but it can be stopped from directly influencing the rump-UK's fiscal policies which wouldn't do their independence much good. Although if it joined the EU separately it would have to adopt the Euro within a few years and the point would be moot.

 

[jgarden]

...The EU will not even begin negotiations on Scottish membership until the UK has left the EU and the Scots have left the UK such that the EU would be clear as to what they were taking on. And as I have said before, Scotland would not be allowed to use the pound as a currency, and they would have to fork out their share of the UK national debt. It's a recipe for another Greece.

I don't see what the risk to the UK is of NI and Scotland leaving. NI is quite particular and I doubt you will get much support for leaving the UK, even if they did vote remain. Voting in or out of the EU is not the same as voting in or out of the UK. The ballot paper was clear 'Should Great Britain leave/remain in the EU?' I'm getting a little tired of repeating this.

1. Scottish "nationalists" would want to hold their referendum prior to the 2 year time period so that their EU membership wouldn't lapse. A major reason for voting to remain in the UK during the last referendum was remaining in the EU.

2. Based on population projections, the number of Catholics is expected to exceed the Protestant population in Northern Ireland by the end of 2016. Based on a referendum, the Catholic majority could vote to leave the UK as an independent nation or join with the rest of Ireland - which is already in the EU.

3. The EU would want to recognize Northern Ireland and Scotland for no other reason than to spite the UK.

4. As for the EU debt:
- the British pound is now lower than its been in 3 decades,
- $billions have been lost in investments around the world,
- Moody, Standard & Poor and Fitch have all downgraded the UK's credit rating since the referendum
- international corporations are reassessing their financial positions in the UK
- businesses are pondering the movement of their head offices to a EU country

 

[drbrumley]

1. Scottish "nationalists" would want to hold their referendum prior to the 2 year time period so that their EU membership woulfn't lapse.

2. The EU would want to recognize Northern Ireland and Scotland for no other reason than to spite the UK.

3. As for the EU debt:
- the British pound is now lower than its been in 3 decades,
- $billions have been lost in investments around the world,
- Moody's has downgraded the UK's credit rating
- international corporations are reassessing their financial position in the UK
- businesses are pondering the move of their head offices to a EU country

All about the money isn't it?

 

[fool]

In my humble opinion the UK and the EU should be able to reach an accommodation concerning the numbers of immigrants entering the country which, as I understand it, was the major concern of those who voted to leave.

Given that the UK was able to retain its own monetary system instead of changing to the Euro when it joined the EU, it would be in the best interests of both sides to make the necessary concessions for the greater good.

That's an important distinction although I'm not sure why. The UK Stayed with the Pound for their currency and wasn't as "free movement" as the others I understand. And I could understand incorrectly.
I don't think most Americans had ever heard of the EU until they came out with their own currency. The prospect of being able to go to Europe and only need one kind of money was big news when it happened like, 13 years ago? And the UK wasn't really "all in" on that so this is an exit of a guy that never really joined all the way.