Theology Club: both in one Body by the cross

[heir]

Nope; their casting away took place in Acts 7.

No way or they would not have had the advantage at the writing of the Roman epistle which was written at the time of Acts 20!

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

You are proof texting that.

The "proof" is that God was still dealing with Israel and those associated all through the Acts of the apostles!

 

[Danoh]

You are proof texting those passages at the begining of Romans 3.

I have to believe you are doing so unaware that you are; you and STP simply do not strike me as being knowingly up to know good going into the passages.

What I see in your assertions is holes in your method of study you are possibly unaware of. Which is why you end up concluding what you end up concluding as to what one or another passage is talking about.

The opening of Romans 3 is one in several points Paul will relate as to the fact that Israel's fall as a nation is temporary.

That God also remains faithful to the PROPHESIED aspect of His Two-Fold Purpose: Prophecy and Mystery.

Circumcision, as Musterion pointed out, having identified that nation as a people through whom God will carry out said Prophetic, Covenant Sealed Plan and Purpose.

He is relating how that the failure of some to have believed, in no way hinders the faith of God - His faithfulness to His PROPHESIED purpose in that nation.

How that the oracles He gave them abound with evidence to His faithfulness to His PROPHESIED Pupose for and through that nation; regardless of how many times in their past they have gotten in their own way.

Paul then returns to what he was relating about Israel's temporary fallen condition and how they ended up that spiritual UNcircumcision WITH the Gentiles.

Keep in mind, sister, that we differ in our basic, foundational understanding of key aspects within Paul's writings.

Again, I admire your zeal, but until those aspects are agreed on, we can only go round and round with one another.

As a result, there really is no point in getting all worked up :chuckle:

All we can do in light of that is compare notes; which often ends up yielding its' own worthwhile fruit in one area or another; sometimes years after said notes were compared...

 

[Danoh]

There were Gentiles under these ordinances.

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Why were certain Gentiles to whom Paul was sent under them? Are we? Why or why not?

Typical "Ambassador" practices ("practices" being another sense of the word "ordinances") when dealing with those who's faith and or customs differ from our own.

The "ambassador" is ever the one under "ordinance" to step up to the plate (no pun intended) and adjust his ways to that of those he is dealing with, so long as he does not compromise who and what he himself represents.

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

1 Corinthians 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

1 Corinthians 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

Try "not for us"-ing that when dealing with people from other cultures - see how far that gets your intent in dealing with them to begin with.

Many Koreans, for example, made that mistake, when they first began gracing our shores with their own beautiful culture and its uniquely its own "ordinances" or "norms."

One would buy something in a Korean owned store; stick one's hand out for the change, only to be met; to one's offence (out of one's own ignorance), with the (1st Generation) Korean custom of putting the change on the counter.

Over time the Koreans came to have "that knowledge," their "conscience" as to this practice no longer "a stumblingblock to them that are weak."

The Apostle Paul might say "this witness is true..."

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

So, no, I have no problem conducting myself at times as if one under ordinance...

 

[patrick jane]

or·di·nance
ˈôrd(ə)nəns/
noun
[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

• 1.
  NORTH AMERICAN
  a piece of legislation enacted by a municipal authority.
  [COLOR=#878787 !important]"a city ordinance banned smoking in nearly all types of restaurants"[/COLOR]
  
  
  
  
• 2.
  an authoritative order; a decree.
  

  synonyms:

  edict, decree, law, injunction, fiat, command, order, rule, ruling,dictum, dictate, directive, mandate

  
  <tbody>
  </tbody>
  
  
  
  

 

[Danoh]

or·di·nance
ˈôrd(ə)nəns/
noun
[COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

• 1.
  NORTH AMERICAN
  a piece of legislation enacted by a municipal authority.
  [COLOR=#878787 !important]"a city ordinance banned smoking in nearly all types of restaurants"[/COLOR]
  
  
  
  
• 2.
  an authoritative order; a decree.
  

  synonyms:

  edict, decree, law, injunction, fiat, command, order, rule, ruling,dictum, dictate, directive, mandate

  
  <tbody>
  </tbody>
  
  
  
  

Consider word studying the use of that word both throughout the KJV and in Paul's various uses of same.

 

[heir]

You are proof texting those passages at the begining of Romans 3.

I am believing what saith the scripture! It says the Jew had an advantage at the time of acts 20! "Much every way" and why is right there for you to believe yet you don't because you refuse to let go of the false premise that Israel was cast away in Acts 7 instead. They clearly were not!

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

 

[heir]

Typical "Ambassador" practices ("practices" being another sense of the word "ordinances") when dealing with those who's faith and or customs differ from our own.

The "ambassador" is ever the one under "ordinance" to step up to the plate (no pun intended) and adjust his ways to that of those he is dealing with, so long as he does not compromise who and what he himself represents.

1 Corinthians 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

1 Corinthians 8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

1 Corinthians 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

Try "not for us"-ing that when dealing with people from other cultures - see how far that gets your intent in dealing with them to begin with.

Many Koreans, for example, made that mistake, when they first began gracing our shores with their own beautiful culture and its uniquely its own "ordinances" or "norms."

One would buy something in a Korean owned store; stick one's hand out for the change, only to be met; to one's offence (out of one's own ignorance), with the (1st Generation) Korean custom of putting the change on the counter.

Over time the Koreans came to have "that knowledge," their "conscience" as to this practice no longer "a stumblingblock to them that are weak."

The Apostle Paul might say "this witness is true..."

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

So, no, I have no problem conducting myself at times as if one under ordinance...

They were called the "handwriting of ordinances". That's the term and it isn't hard to see that we were never under them as they were against us/contrary to us!

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


And the weaker brother was about those under dietary restrictions because there were two programs running simultaneously, the remnant was being gathered and the middle wall of partition was intact. Your modern day cultural application doesn't work. You don't become a Jew that you may win the Jew. LOL

1 Timothy 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

 

[Danoh]

I am believing what saith the scripture! It says the Jew had an advantage at the time of acts 20! "Much every way" and why is right there for you to believe yet you don't because you refuse to let go of the false premise that Israel was cast away in Acts 7 instead. They clearly were not!

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

That speaks of THEIR Promise as not over a done with for the failure of their unbelieving fellow Israelites.

Lol, Paul began his indictment against unbelieving Israel in Romans 2:17 - which you have confused as proselytes out of your consistent failure to understand the sense of words like "called" when and where they are being used.

It is a condemnation there against the hypocritical Jew.

There is a hole in how you approach studying these things out. Yours is the same hole of the 28ers.

But all you do is take offence when this is pointed out to you. Quit being so hard on yourself; we all make mistakes.

 

[Danoh]

They were called the "handwriting of ordinances". That's the term and it isn't hard to see that we were never under them as they were against us/contrary to us!

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


And the weaker brother was about those under dietary restrictions because there were two programs running simultaneously, the remnant was being gathered and the middle wall of partition was intact. Your modern day cultural application doesn't work. You don't become a Jew that you may win the Jew. LOL

1 Timothy 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

Two separate issues. No arguement there.

 

[heir]

That speaks of THEIR Promise as not over a done with for the failure of their unbelieving fellow Israelites.

They had the advantage as in to the Jew first all throughout the Acts period (Acts 26:17 KJV which is the time of Acts 9, Acts 13:26 KJV, Acts 13:46 KJV, Romans 1:16 KJV). Why you want to say that Israel was cast away in Acts 7 is beyond me. Israel had fallen, but had not been cast away. Paul was sent to certain Gentiles that Paul may provoke to emulation them which were his flesh, and might save some of them! You can't get around it!

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Romans 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

Romans 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

 

[heir]

Two separate issues. No arguement there.

You can't make up your mind.

There were Gentiles under these ordinances.

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

...

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Yet those were against us/ contrary to us.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

We were never under any ordinances, but earlier Gentiles called Greeks were! It's time you 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV!

 

[heir]

Lol, Paul began his indictment against unbelieving Israel in Romans 2:17 - which you have confused as proselytes out of your consistent failure to understand the sense of words like "called" when and where they are being used.

It is a condemnation there against the hypocritical Jew.

Paul was speaking to Gentiles

Romans 1:13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.



Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

 

[Danoh]

You can't make up your mind.

There were Gentiles under these ordinances.

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Yet those were against us/ contrary to us.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

We were never under any ordinances, but earlier Gentiles called Greeks were! It's time you 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV!

Do your history woman - at times Greeks refers to what Jews referred to any one not a Jew - the Gentiles - as a result of the previous rule: the Greek Empire.

Just as Barbarians were what the Romans referred to anyone not a Roman.

Being well versed in both worlds, Paul uses both terms, for example.

And never mind what "to the Jew first" is actually a reference to; your mind is definitely made up about all these terms.

It is a reference to the historical "you first" preference the Jew had once had BUT NOW no longer did.

When Paul related to Israel what he related in Acts 13's "you first" said "you first" was already no longer the case.

Their failure under the Law just prior to Paul there, in Acts 7 had concluded them under sin with the Gentiles - spiritual UNcircumcision...

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Romans 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written. 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[heir]

Do your history woman - at times Greeks refers to what Jews referred to any one not a Jew - the Gentiles - as a result of the previous rule: the Greek Empire.

Do yours, "man". All Greeks were Gentiles, but not all Gentiles were Greeks. Greeks were blessers as per Genesis 12:3 KJV. Not all Gentiles that Paul was sent to were the same. There are clearly differences in Gentiles to whom Paul was first sent~ those to whom the Acts 15 ordinances pertained to and those to whom Paul was later sent that those ordinances did not pertain to.

The Greeks were Gentiles allied/aligned with Israel as per Genesis 12:3 KJV

Here they are. They are the "whosoever among you feareth God"

Acts 13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

Those Gentiles feared the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They were in the commonwealth of Israel, they were in the covenants of promise (Galatians 3:29 KJV), they were in a position of being blessed as per Genesis 12:3 KJV. They had a hope.

Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

 

[heir]

We even see a Greek during Christ's earthy ministry and what is she seeking? Answer: a blessing!


Mark 7:25-27 KJV For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet: 26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. 27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

She recognized Him as Lord and understood her position

Mark 7:28 KJV And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.

Mark 7:29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.

The Greeks that Paul encountered during his Acts provoking ministry were heirs according to the promise (Genesis 12:3 KJV, Acts 13:26 KJV, Galatians 3:29 KJV). Paul found in the synagogue of the Jews (Acts 17:1-2 KJV, Acts 18:4 KJV). Their blessing was still a mystery pre-Paul. Their blessing came in the form of the forgiveness of sins (Acts 13:38-39 KJV). IOW, it came by Paul's "my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret since the world began,...a mystery hidden in the scriptures (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).


We can try all day long, but we cannot say the same thing about the Ephesian Gentiles to whom Paul wrote the letter. The "YOU GENTILES" that Paul became a prisoner of Jesus Christ for (Ephesians 3:1 KJV) in time past were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. They are to whom Paul was later sent (Acts 22:21 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV).

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

These Ephesians (much like the Colossians) were never under any ordinances. On the contrary:

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The law of commandments contained in ordinances was the wall of partition that was broken down between them (us). Together, we are the twain made one new man (Ephesians 2:15). It is the fellowship of the mystery (Ephesians 3:1-12 KJV). All aboard (Ephesians 3:6 KJV, 1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV)!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Greeks seek after wisdom!

 

[patrick jane]

We even see a Greek during Christ's earthy ministry and what is she seeking? Answer: a blessing!


Mark 7:25-27 KJV For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet: 26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. 27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

She recognized Him as Lord and understood her position

Mark 7:28 KJV And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.

Mark 7:29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.

The Greeks that Paul encountered during his Acts provoking ministry were heirs according to the promise (Genesis 12:3 KJV, Acts 13:26 KJV, Galatians 3:29 KJV). Paul found in the synagogue of the Jews (Acts 17:1-2 KJV, Acts 18:4 KJV). Their blessing was still a mystery pre-Paul. Their blessing came in the form of the forgiveness of sins (Acts 13:38-39 KJV). IOW, it came by Paul's "my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret since the world began,...a mystery hidden in the scriptures (Romans 16:25-27 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).


We can try all day long, but we cannot say the same thing about the Ephesian Gentiles to whom Paul wrote the letter. The "YOU GENTILES" that Paul became a prisoner of Jesus Christ for (Ephesians 3:1 KJV) in time past were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. They are to whom Paul was later sent (Acts 22:21 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV).

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

These Ephesians (much like the Colossians) were never under any ordinances. On the contrary:

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The law of commandments contained in ordinances was the wall of partition that was broken down between them (us). Together, we are the twain made one new man (Ephesians 2:15). It is the fellowship of the mystery (Ephesians 3:1-12 KJV). All aboard!

Another Home Run For Heir !!!

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Using the scriptures of the prophets, can you name one blessing that Paul could show to a pagan Gentile?

Using the scriptures of the prophets, can you name one blessing that Paul could show to a Gentile that believed in the God of Israel?

 

[patrick jane]

Using the scriptures of the prophets, can you name one blessing that Paul could show to a pagan Gentile?

Using the scriptures of the prophets, can you name one blessing that Paul could show to a Gentile that believed in the God of Israel?

Whom are you asking oh mysterious one ?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Whom are you asking oh mysterious one ?

For the general audience.