ECT Born of water vs. born of the spirit

[oatmeal]

John 2:23-3:7

23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

To be born of water = being born of the flesh

To be born of spirit = to be born again or literally, born from above

I Peter 1:23

I John 4:13

 

[jamie]

To be born of water = being born of the flesh

To be born of spirit = to be born again or literally, born from above

To be baptized sets a person up for spiritual begettal by the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands.

To be born of the Spirit means a person is born with a spiritual body and life inherent.

 

[oatmeal]

To be baptized sets a person up for spiritual begettal by the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands.

To be born of the Spirit means a person is born with a spiritual body and life inherent.

Any scripture?

 

[jamie]

Any scripture?

But now Christ is risen from the dead and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. (1 Corinthians 15:20 NKJV)​

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

How can a man be born of water after he has already been born from his mothers womb.

Unless Jesus is referring to water baptism.

Jesus would only be saying be born of the Spirit if that is all a man must do to enter the Kingdom of God.

Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


LA

 

[jamie]

1 John 5:7

No Syriac manuscript of any family — Peshito, Philoxenian, or Harklean — has the three witnesses; and their presence in the printed Syriac Gospels is due to translation from the Vulgate.

So too, the Coptic manuscripts — both Sahidic and Bohairic — have no trace of the disputed part, nor have the Ethiopic manuscripts which represent Greek influence through the medium of Coptic.

The Armenian manuscripts, which favour the reading of the Vulgate, are admitted to represent a Latin influence which dates from the twelfth century; early Armenian manuscripts are against the Latin reading.

Of the Itala or Old Latin manuscripts, only two have our present reading of the three witnesses: Codex Monacensis of the sixth or seventh century; and the Speculum, an eighth or ninth century manuscript which gives many quotations from the New Testament.

Even the Vulgate, in the majority of its earliest manuscripts, is without the passage in question. Witnesses to the canonicity are: the Bible of Theodulph (eighth century) in the National Library of Paris; Codex Cavensis (ninth century), the best representative of the Spanish type of text: Toletanus (tenth century); and the majority of Vulgate manuscripts after the twelfth century.

There was some dispute as to the canonicity of the three witnesses as early as the sixth century: for the preface to the Catholic Epistles in Codex Fuldensis (A.D. 541-546) complains about the omission of this passage from some of the Latin versions.

(newadvent.org/ Catholic Encyclopedia/ Epistles of St. John)
​

 

[oatmeal]

But now Christ is risen from the dead and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. (1 Corinthians 15:20 NKJV)​

So being born of water refers to our earthly birth whereas being born of the spirit refers to being born again of God's spirit.

 

[oatmeal]

1 John 5:7

No Syriac manuscript of any family — Peshito, Philoxenian, or Harklean — has the three witnesses; and their presence in the printed Syriac Gospels is due to translation from the Vulgate.

So too, the Coptic manuscripts — both Sahidic and Bohairic — have no trace of the disputed part, nor have the Ethiopic manuscripts which represent Greek influence through the medium of Coptic.

The Armenian manuscripts, which favour the reading of the Vulgate, are admitted to represent a Latin influence which dates from the twelfth century; early Armenian manuscripts are against the Latin reading.

Of the Itala or Old Latin manuscripts, only two have our present reading of the three witnesses: Codex Monacensis of the sixth or seventh century; and the Speculum, an eighth or ninth century manuscript which gives many quotations from the New Testament.

Even the Vulgate, in the majority of its earliest manuscripts, is without the passage in question. Witnesses to the canonicity are: the Bible of Theodulph (eighth century) in the National Library of Paris; Codex Cavensis (ninth century), the best representative of the Spanish type of text: Toletanus (tenth century); and the majority of Vulgate manuscripts after the twelfth century.

There was some dispute as to the canonicity of the three witnesses as early as the sixth century: for the preface to the Catholic Epistles in Codex Fuldensis (A.D. 541-546) complains about the omission of this passage from some of the Latin versions.

(newadvent.org/ Catholic Encyclopedia/ Epistles of St. John)
​

did you intend this for another thread?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

How can a man be born of water after he has already been born from his mothers womb.

John explains born of water:

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Your obsession with water baptism (like some's obsession with circumcision in Acts) keeps you from trusting the Lord.

 

[oatmeal]

How can a man be born of water after he has already been born from his mothers womb.

Unless Jesus is referring to water baptism.

Jesus would only be saying be born of the Spirit if that is all a man must do to enter the Kingdom of God.

Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


LA

Of course, he is not referring to water baptism.

Jesus Christ makes that clear in the passage I opened with.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The context and parallel structure demonstrates that clearly enough.

to be born of water is our earthly birth

to be born of spirit is our heavenly birth, to be born again of God's spirit. I Peter 1:23, I John 4:13

 

[oatmeal]

i think it refers to johns baptism (his ministry)
and jesus (his ministry

acts 1:5

Why then does not Jesus mention baptism in John 3:1-7 ??

The context does include Nic's reference to our earthly birth and to Nic's question Jesus replies referring to our earthly birth.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Of course, he is not referring to water baptism.

Jesus Christ makes that clear in the passage I opened with.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The context and parallel structure demonstrates that clearly enough.

to be born of water is our earthly birth

to be born of spirit is our heavenly birth, to be born again of God's spirit. I Peter 1:23, I John 4:13

Nicodemus could not be born of a woman again.

You misread the text.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God

Jesus would not have answered "except a man be born of water" etc. if it meant a mans first birth from his mother.



LA

 

[jamie]

So being born of water refers to our earthly birth whereas being born of the spirit refers to being born again of God's spirit.

Not a chance. Jesus set the pattern of death, burial, resurrection. He expects us to follow suit.

We can't be judged until after we die, but judgment begins at the house of God.

 

[jamie]

Why then does not Jesus mention baptism in John 3:1-7 ??

The context does include Nic's reference to our earthly birth and to Nic's question Jesus replies referring to our earthly birth.

Nowhere in the NT is amniotic fluid referred to as water.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Nowhere in the NT is amniotic fluid referred to as water.

Good point.

and if there is no requirement of water baptism, why then did the Lord command it as did Peter and even Paul was water baptized.

LA

 

[oatmeal]

Nicodemus could not be born of a woman again.

You misread the text.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God

Jesus would not have answered "except a man be born of water" etc. if it meant a mans first birth from his mother.



LA

Yes, that is what I said.

to be born of water is reference to our earthly birth to our earthly parents

 

[oatmeal]

Nowhere in the NT is amniotic fluid referred to as water.

Actually it does, in the passage that I quoted.

To be born of water is reference to your birth from your mother.

It is not a reference to water baptism. Baptism is nowhere in the context of that record John 2:24-3:21 has no reference to baptism at all

It is talking about being born and being born again

 

[oatmeal]

Not a chance. Jesus set the pattern of death, burial, resurrection. He expects us to follow suit.

We can't be judged until after we die, but judgment begins at the house of God.

What scriptures do you have to support your conclusions?

Oh, wait, you listed none, none whatsoever, zero, goose egg, nada.

You have no leg to stand on.

You have provided your self exalted opinion, not scripture.

When you get serious enough to post scripture, then I might take your posts seriously.

 

[jamie]

You have provided your self exalted opinion, not scripture.

When you get serious enough to post scripture, then I might take your posts seriously.

Unfortunately I gave you credit for being familiar with scripture. Are you a novice like me?

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Nicodemus could not be born of a woman again.

You misread the text.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God

Jesus would not have answered "except a man be born of water" etc. if it meant a mans first birth from his mother.



LA

Yes, that is what I said.

to be born of water is reference to our earthly birth to our earthly parents

No.

You said different to me.

Jesus would not say to Nicodemus that he must be born of his mother and of the Spirit.

Jesus had already said no to that.

LA