Biden/Harris 2020

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
I will fill out my ballot completely including voting for president. As a general rule I do not vote for Democrats or Republicans for president. I will vote third party.
My comment "I don't care who wins" is more about how I will not cry like a spoiled child who needs a "safe space" or a therapy dog after the election. I realize that either Trump or Biden will win the election. I'm not a Trump supporter as I believe he is ill suited to be president. His election win was a huge middle finger, f-you to the establishment. Trump is a very poor leader IMO but he likes being the "Boss man", "Massa", the "overseer". He has no clue how to work with others. I also have zero respect for a man who cheats on his wife. Given that, I can't vote for Biden either. I disagree with Biden on most issues and his Creepy Joe antics are off-putting.

I thought you might be voting third party but I didn't want to assume. While I understand why someone would vote third party, it's a wasted vote in our political system as it stands now. I'll vote for the lesser of two evils, because I no longer buy the "less evil is still evil" argument when it comes to our political system. One of the two parties will win, so which is more advantageous (or less dangerous) for the country? That's who I want to win.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
No they are not. False appeal to pathos.

Harris wants to make national the despicable law Cuomo signed in NY - abortion on demand, up to delivery, with a doctor's approval.

Deliberate killing of a child accidentally born alive during a botched abortion.

These are evil people anna
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Harris wants to make national the despicable law Cuomo signed in NY - abortion on demand, up to delivery, with a doctor's approval.

Deliberate killing of a child accidentally born alive during a botched abortion.

These are evil people anna


Facts:
https://www.factcheck.org/2019/03/the-facts-on-the-born-alive-debate/

In 2002, the “Born-Alive Infants Protection Act” easily passed Congress — through a voice vote in the House and unanimous consent in the Senate. It became law on Aug. 5, 2002. It defined a “person” (or “human being,” “child” and “individual”) for the purposes of any act of Congress or any agency ruling/regulation as “every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.“

The act went on to define “born alive” as: “the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.”

Are either of these laws necessary to prosecute the intentional killing of a baby as a homicide?

No. Killing a baby is a homicide. “States can and do punish people for killing children who are born alive,” Mary Ziegler, a professor at Florida State University’s College of Law and the author of two books on the abortion debate, told us in a phone interview. “Most criminal laws are at the state level not the federal level.”​
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Does the R.H.A. remove protections for an infant born alive during an abortion?


Yes. The R.H.A. repeals section 4164 of New York’s public health law. That section had provided that abortions after the 12th week of pregnancy had to be performed in a hospital, and that for abortions after 20 weeks a separate physician had to be on hand to provide medical care for any infant born alive during the procedure—which is a possibility, even if an unlikely one.

The now-repealed section also specified that a child born alive during an abortion procedure immediately enjoyed the protection of New York’s laws, and it required medical records to be kept of the efforts to care for the infant. Without section 4164, the public health law is now silent on the status of an infant born alive during an abortion.


https://www.americamagazine.org/rha2019?page=1
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Does the R.H.A. allow abortion up to the point of birth?


The new law allows abortion under any of three conditions: (1) if it is performed earlier than 24 weeks of pregnancy; (2) in an “absence of fetal viability”; or (3) if necessary to “protect the patient’s life or health.”

So abortion is allowed without any restrictions during the first and second trimesters. Later than that, the question is how fetal viability and protection of the life and health of the mother are determined. The R.H.A. says that those judgments are to be made according to “the practitioner's reasonable and good faith professional judgment based on the facts of the patient's case”; it does not impose any objective medical standard.


Pro-life critics point out that the exception for the health of the mother is broad enough to cover basically any possible late-term abortion.
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Pro-life critics of the law are pointing out that the exception for health, which is not restricted to a physical definition and can be interpreted to cover psychological and emotional health, subject only to the medical judgment of the abortion provider, is broad enough to cover basically any possible late-term abortion. Insofar as the goal of the law was to guarantee access to abortion and remove restrictions on it, this is part and parcel of that goal. The new law does not contain any meaningful restriction that is likely to ever prevent an abortion.

Pro-choice advocates point out that one reason for that is that the very small fraction of abortions that are conducted at 21 weeks or later (a little more than 1 percent) are almost always in response to some medical issue. Those issues could include acute risks to the life of the mother or conditions that make the child unable to survive to birth—but they also include situations where the child would face a terminal condition, significant suffering or a severe disability after birth, and where abortion is chosen to “spare” the child such pain. However, some providers have acknowledged that they are willing to perform late-term abortions even absent medical necessity, though it is impossible to estimate how many late-term abortions fall under that description.
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Does the R.H.A. remove protections for an infant born alive during an abortion?


Yes. The R.H.A. repeals section 4164 of New York’s public health law. That section had provided that abortions after the 12th week of pregnancy had to be performed in a hospital, and that for abortions after 20 weeks a separate physician had to be on hand to provide medical care for any infant born alive during the procedure—which is a possibility, even if an unlikely one.

The now-repealed section also specified that a child born alive during an abortion procedure immediately enjoyed the protection of New York’s laws, and it required medical records to be kept of the efforts to care for the infant. Without section 4164, the public health law is now silent on the status of an infant born alive during an abortion.


https://www.americamagazine.org/rha2019?page=1




Are either of these laws necessary to prosecute the intentional killing of a baby as a homicide?

No. Killing a baby is a homicide. “States can and do punish people for killing children who are born alive,” Mary Ziegler, a professor at Florida State University’s College of Law and the author of two books on the abortion debate, told us in a phone interview. “Most criminal laws are at the state level not the federal level.”
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Take it from a Christian Republican:

It is difficult for pro-lifers to vote Democrat. But it’s better than Trump.

Among recent defenses of evangelical support for President Trump, ethicist Andrew Walker of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary has provided the most reasonable.

Writing in National Review,Walker argues that his coreligionists are not MAGA cult members but conflicted moralists who must choose between supporting a “compromised, unqualified figurehead” and “a disastrous policy platform that bears the marks of intrinsic evil, such as abortion.” The critics of evangelical Christian political decisions, in Walker’s view, don’t fully understand the priority evangelicals give to their pro-life convictions. “To the average religious conservative,” he says, “saving America means saving it from the scourge of abortion.” This makes support for a strongly pro-choice political party essentially impossible.

I think Walker significantly (and strategically) overestimates the amount of moral angst amongst evangelical Trump supporters. But many pro-life voters (including myself) will face the dilemma he describes in the upcoming presidential election.

Walker is making the following claim: If you think abortion is a matter of life or death, then you must support whoever opposes it most vigorously, even if he or she is an immoral lout.

There are several responses:


First, it is a moral claim without a limiting principle. It would justify the argument: If you think abortion is a matter of life or death, then you must support whoever opposes it most vigorously, even if he or she suspends the Constitution and rules by decree. Or, even if he or she is sympathetic to chattel slavery. This should raise immediate ethical flags. The principle cries out for qualification.

Second, the statement contains a false premise. Voters are not choosing a dictator who would have the immediate power to outlaw abortion. They are choosing a politician who may or may not be involved in influencing a public debate that may or may not result in the choice of a Supreme Court justice who may or may not be part of a majority opinion that may or may not overturn Roe v. Wade, which may or may not significantly reduce the number of abortions. A vote for a politician is only tenuously related to a change in the social and legal status of abortion in the United States. Indeed, the number of abortions trended downward in all but one year of the Clinton and Obama administrations.

Third, voting for a candidate is also related to other moral matters of public importance. This is the truest source of complexity: weighing likely political and social outcomes. One’s vote may discourage racism, or result in more empathetic treatment of the poor, or maintain high standards of public ethics, or encourage the proper treatment of women. So, voting for a pro-life president who promises to jail his or her enemies would be immoral. He or she would have the immediate power to destroy the rule of law and almost no immediate power to end abortion. Voting for a pro-life president who treats migrant children and fleeing refugees as so much human refuse would be immoral. Such dehumanization would have immediate consequences. Here the relative value (and urgency) that we assign to various moral imperatives matters greatly.

Fourth, pro-lifers in the United States are going to win the abortion debate only if we persuade enough people to join our side of the argument. We are not going to prevail by gaining power and imposing our view. We can make changes at the margin using legislative majorities and executive power, but these are very marginal. Ultimately, we have a fundamentally persuasive task, requiring us to think about how our arguments look to people with different views. To have those arguments associated with Trump — and thus with misogyny, racism and xenophobia — is not likely to be helpful.

Finally, Christians have an additional burden in this debate: They need to act in ways that do not undermine the reputation of the Gospel. This commitment needs to figure heavily in the weighing of social outcomes.

Given these points, it would be possible for pro-life citizens to vote for a pro-choice candidate under limited circumstances — particularly when the social threat they oppose with their vote is more immediate than the long-term influence of their vote on the number of abortions.

It would be difficult for a pro-life citizen to be an enthusiastic and loyal Democrat, even if my case is correct. But it is possible to imagine circumstances in which voting for a Democrat would be preferable to endorsing immediate harm to the country by a Republican. And we are in exactly such a circumstance.
 

The Berean

Well-known member
I thought you might be voting third party but I didn't want to assume. While I understand why someone would vote third party, it's a wasted vote in our political system as it stands now. I'll vote for the lesser of two evils, because I no longer buy the "less evil is still evil" argument when it comes to our political system. One of the two parties will win, so which is more advantageous (or less dangerous) for the country? That's who I want to win.

The wasted vote view is simply the bandwagon fallacy. No vote is wasted simply because you deem it to be so. That'a just silly. Trump and Biden are both silly candidates and not worthy of my vote. The only Democrat I would have even remotely considered voting for was Andrew Yang. But his downfall was in trying to create practical solutions for America's problems and not enough time spent being a demagogue, whining about Trump, and pandering to progressive extremists. Plus, the Democrats have too many closet racists to elect an Asian-American.
 

The Berean

Well-known member
It's not silly at all. Your third party vote means absolutely nothing to the future of the country. You can call it a conscience vote, but the fact remains that it's an utterly useless vote.
Sorry, it is NOT a FACT. It is your OPINION. You are in no position to tell anyone that their vote is wasted. Sorry, that is fact.
 

User Name

Greatest poster ever
Banned
Your third party vote means absolutely nothing to the future of the country. You can call it a conscience vote, but the fact remains that it's an utterly useless vote.

I live in a solidly red state. It seems to me that based on the reasoning you describe above, I would be wasting my vote to vote blue because a Democrat has absolutely no chance of winning my state's electoral votes. So why bother?

I've voted 3rd party in every presidential election that I have participated in since 1992. It's never a wasted vote to vote your conscience. Do what you think is best, and let the chips fall where they will because they're going to fall that way anyhow.
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
I live in a solidly red state. It seems to me that based on the reasoning you describe above, I would be wasting my vote to vote blue because a Democrat has absolutely no chance of winning my state's electoral votes. So why bother?

I've voted 3rd party in every presidential election that I have participated in since 1992. It's never a wasted vote to vote your conscience. Do what you think is best, and let the chips fall where they will because they're going to fall that way anyhow.

States go from red to blue and blue to red, and on the way they're often purple. My state and my county were red before they were blue. But we don't have any green states or yellow states. People can and often do vote their heart in the primary, then vote for one of the two parties that will do the least harm in the general. None of your third party candidates since 1992 won, but perhaps if you were a Jill Stein voter you may have done enough damage to help elect Trump in 3 very close states. Ultimately, the way the system works right now, people who vote third party and then complain about who wins really don't have much of a leg to stand on but yes, of course - they absolutely have every right to stand on whatever small percent of leg they choose.

It may not always be that way. It could be that the post-Trump GOP splits into two statistically significant parties, the GOP of Reagan and the GOP of Trump/QAnon/white nationalism/Christian dominionism.
 
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annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
At Homeland Security, I saw firsthand how dangerous Trump is for America

August 17, 2020 at 11:05 a.m. PDTMiles Taylor served at the Department of Homeland Security from 2017 to 2019, including as chief of staff.

After serving for more than two years in the Department of Homeland Security’s leadership during the Trump administration, I can attest that the country is less secure as a direct result of the president’s actions.

Like many Americans, I had hoped that Donald Trump, once in office, would soberly accept the burdens of the presidency — foremost among them the duty to keep America safe. But he did not rise to the challenge. Instead, the president has governed by whim, political calculation and self-interest.

I wasn’t in a position to judge how his personal deficiencies affected other important matters, such as the environment or energy policy, but when it came to national security, I witnessed the damning results firsthand.

The president has tried to turn DHS, the nation’s largest law enforcement agency, into a tool used for his political benefit. He insisted on a near-total focus on issues that he said were central to his reelection — in particular building a wall on the U.S. border with Mexico. Though he was often talked out of bad ideas at the last moment, the president would make obviously partisan requests of DHS, including when he told us to close the California-Mexico border during a March 28, 2019, Oval Office meeting — it would be better for him politically, he said, than closing long stretches of the Texas or Arizona border — or to “dump” illegal immigrants in Democratic-leaning sanctuary cities and states to overload their authorities, as he insisted several times.

Trump’s indiscipline was also a constant source of frustration. One day in February 2019, when congressional leaders were waiting for an answer from the White House on a pending deal to avoid a second government shutdown, the president demanded a DHS phone briefing to discuss the color of the wall. He was particularly interested in the merits of using spray paint and how the steel structure should be coated. Episodes like this occurred almost weekly.

The decision-making process was itself broken: Trump would abruptly endorse policy proposals with little or no consideration, by him or his advisers, of possible knock-on effects. That was the case in 2018 when then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced, at the White House’s urging, a “zero tolerance” policy to prosecute anyone who crossed the border illegally. The agencies involved were unprepared to implement the policy, causing a disastrous backlog of detentions that ultimately left migrant parents and their children separated.

Incredibly, after this ill-conceived operation was rightfully halted, in the following months the president repeatedly exhorted DHS officials to restart it and to implement a more deliberate policy of pulling migrant families apart en masse, so that adults would be deterred from coming to the border for fear of losing their children. The president was visibly furious on multiple occasions when my boss, then-Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen, refused.

Top DHS officials were regularly diverted from dealing with genuine security threats by the chore of responding to these inappropriate and often absurd executive requests, at all hours of the day and night. One morning it might be a demand to shut off congressionally appropriated funds to a foreign ally that had angered him, and that evening it might be a request to sharpen the spikes atop the border wall so they’d be more damaging to human flesh (“How much would that cost us?”). Meanwhile, Trump showed vanishingly little interest in subjects of vital national security interest, including cybersecurity, domestic terrorism and malicious foreign interference in U.S. affairs.


How can you run a huge organization under those conditions? You can’t. At DHS, daily management of its 250,000 employees suffered because of these frequent follies, putting the safety of Americans at risk.

The president has similarly undermined U.S. security abroad. His own former national security adviser John Bolton made the case so convincingly with his recent book and public accounts that there is little to add, other than to say that Bolton got it right. Because the commander in chief has diminished America’s influence overseas, today the nation has fewer friends and stronger enemies than when Trump took office.

Trump has also damaged the country in countless ways that don’t directly involve national security but, by stoking hatred and division, make Americans profoundly less safe.

The president’s bungled response to the coronavirus pandemic is the ultimate example. In his cavalier disregard for the seriousness of the threat, Trump failed to make effective use of the federal crisis response system painstakingly built after 9/11. Years of DHS planning for a pandemic threat have been largely wasted. Meanwhile, more than 165,000 Americans have died.

It is more than a little ironic that Trump is campaigning for a second term as a law-and-order president. His first term has been dangerously chaotic. Four more years of this are unthinkable.
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
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