Beloved57 are you sure you’re chosen?

[Clete]

@glorydaz ,

Did you say thank you to your husband when he gave you a gift? Do you ever say, "I love you." out loud to your spouse? Have you then somehow done something to deserve the gifts you've been given and relationship you have with him? Are these words you've spoken somehow payments against a debt you owe? Is it false for you to claim that you gave yourself freely to your husband in marriage because you said "I do."?

 

[glorydaz]

@glorydaz ,

Did you say thank you to your husband when he gave you a gift? Do you ever say, "I love you." out loud to your spouse? Have you then somehow done something to deserve the gifts you've been given and relationship you have with him? Are these words you've spoken somehow payments against a debt you owe? Is it false for you to claim that you gave yourself freely to your husband in marriage because you said "I do."?

You're missing the point, Clete, and reacting on an emotional level. This isn't about me.

God has always required more from His chosen people than He requires of us.

Matt. 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.


Of course, as believers, we'll gladly confess the Lord as our Saviour, but it isn't any kind of requirement. The moment we believe, we are saved. There isn't even time to confess Him.....so the IF becomes moot for the church of God. Not so, with the Jewish believers. Which is who Paul is talking about in Romans 10.

Peter is a good example. Peter learned through the Cornelius episode that he was no longer under the law for righteousness. He kept the law because he was zealous for the law. The law will be in force during the Kingdom. The law isn't bad, it just can't produce righteousness. It was confessing Jesus Christ as the Son of God that gave Peter eternal life. Faith in His name, which is why they had to confess His name.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
2 John 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

 

[glorydaz]

You are the one making the claim, not me. It isn't my burden to prove you wrong, it's your burden to prove your own case. If me a reason to think that it's something other than nonsense and I will consider it. That is THE only reason I'm even here.


What are you even talking about? The entire book of Romans is Paul presentation of the gospel!

Clete

No, Paul is giving Israel's POV in all three of those chapters.

I already asked you to show me the gospel in chapter 9. I'll wait.

 

[Clete]

You're missing the point, Clete, and reacting on an emotional level. This isn't about me.

Translation: I don't want to answer the question with a direct answer because the answer proves my whole thesis wrong and if I say it out loud it means I have to rethink everything I thought I knew about Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, who agreed to let the Twelve minister to Israel while he would minister to the Gentiles, was teaching, right in the middle of the greatest treatise on God's GRACE that has ever been written, the Jews how to live under the law.

God has always required more from His chosen people than He requires of us.

Matt. 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.


Of course, as believers, we'll gladly confess the Lord as our Saviour, but it isn't any kind of requirement. The moment we believe, we are saved. There isn't even time to confess Him.....so the IF becomes moot for the church of God. Not so, with the Jewish believers. Which is who Paul is talking about in Romans 10.

Peter is a good example. Peter learned through the Cornelius episode that he was no longer under the law for righteousness. He kept the law because he was zealous for the law. The law will be in force during the Kingdom. The law isn't bad, it just can't produce righteousness. It was confessing Jesus Christ as the Son of God that gave Peter eternal life. Faith in His name, which is why they had to confess His name.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
2 John 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

I didn't even read this. It's just you repeating yourself.

When you answer my direct question with a direct answer we can continue. Until then, you're wasting my time.

Clete

 

[Clete]

No, Paul is giving Israel's POV in all three of those chapters.

I already asked you to show me the gospel in chapter 9. I'll wait.

The question makes no sense, glorydaz!

Romans 9 is specifically about God having cut off Israel and His having turned instead to the Gentiles but the whole entire book is a methodical presentation of the dispensation of Grace, the cutting off of Israel being only one important detail in the story.

 

[glorydaz]

The question makes no sense, glorydaz!

Romans 9 is specifically about God having cut off Israel and His having turned instead to the Gentiles but the whole entire book is a methodical presentation of the dispensation of Grace, the cutting off of Israel being only one important detail in the story.

Ah, that one important detail that you've included and dubbed as Paul's gospel of grace.

Paul is teaching of a remnant of believers.....Israel, not the body of Christ.
Romans 9-11 is not about the body of Christ, as you keep insisting.

Those three chapters are all prophecy concerning Israel.
Nothing whatsoever about the mystery or Paul's gospel of grace.

 

[glorydaz]

Translation: I don't want to answer the question with a direct answer because the answer proves my whole thesis wrong and if I say it out loud it means I have to rethink everything I thought I knew about Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, who agreed to let the Twelve minister to Israel while he would minister to the Gentiles, was teaching, right in the middle of the greatest treatise on God's GRACE that has ever been written, the Jews how to live under the law.

You're flat out wrong, and refuse to admit it. You seem to forget that Paul was sent to the Jews as well as to the gentiles.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

The only thing that changed with the agreement was that Paul wouldn't preach his gospel to the believers of the Kingdom gospel.
That's because he knew they were saved under a different program than the gentiles were. Paul was preaching to UNBELIEVERS of every stripe wherever he found them, and was not going to preach to Peter's converts and that's as far as that agreement went.

And, once again, you have refused to hear what I said. He was not telling the Jews how to live under the law. I don't know where you got that idea, but you're a dog with a bone and will not let go of it.

So, just as God interrupted His program with Israel in bringing forward the Kingdom, Paul interrupted the "greatest treatise" on God's grace to give forth a teaching about God's chosen people. When you try to insert the body of Christ into this teaching concerning Israel, you err.

Once again. Where is the gospel in chapter 9?

 

[glorydaz]

They didn't want to risk you losing the brainwashing. Fair to put it that way?

Musty, where are you? Have you been put aside because you speak truth and truth is being attacked here?

 

[Clete]

Ah, that one important detail that you've included and dubbed as Paul's gospel of grace.

Paul is teaching of a remnant of believers.....Israel, not the body of Christ.
Romans 9-11 is not about the body of Christ, as you keep insisting.

Those three chapters are all prophecy concerning Israel.
Nothing whatsoever about the mystery or Paul's gospel of grace.

Saying it doesn't make it so, glorydaz.

This will be the last of these posts I respond to until you make an actual argument. Reading you repeat yourself is a boring waste of time.

 

[Clete]

You're flat out wrong, and refuse to admit it. You seem to forget that Paul was sent to the Jews as well as to the gentiles.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

The only thing that changed with the agreement was that Paul wouldn't preach his gospel to the believers of the Kingdom gospel.
That's because he knew they were saved under a different program than the gentiles were. Paul was preaching to UNBELIEVERS of every stripe wherever he found them, and was not going to preach to Peter's converts and that's as far as that agreement went.

And, once again, you have refused to hear what I said. He was not telling the Jews how to live under the law. I don't know where you got that idea, but you're a dog with a bone and will not let go of it.

So, just as God interrupted His program with Israel in bringing forward the Kingdom, Paul interrupted the "greatest treatise" on God's grace to give forth a teaching about God's chosen people. When you try to insert the body of Christ into this teaching concerning Israel, you err.

Once again. Where is the gospel in chapter 9?

I did not read this. When you answer the question, we can continue. Not before.

 

[glorydaz]

I did not read this. When you answer the question, we can continue. Not before.

You think too highly of yourself, Clete.

You have no desire to hear that you're wrong about Romans 10, so you have set out to trash everything I've said.

It's actually called blaming the messenger.

 

[glorydaz]

Clete cannot show Paul's great glorious gospel in Romans chapters 9 or 11.
So, in chapter 10, he robs this confession of Jesus Christ from the Jewish believers and claims it's for the body. It isn't.

This is serious business, and should not be ignored. You all claim to rightly divide. Let's see some proof of that.

 

[Clete]

You think too highly of yourself, Clete.

You have no desire to hear that you're wrong about Romans 10, so you have set out to trash everything I've said.

It's actually called blaming the messenger.

When people transparently avoid answering direct questions that are so intuitively pertinent to the point of disagreement, they become my best argument. The idea that making a verbal confession of faith is any sort of legalism is simply rediculous and my questions make that plain to anyone who can read.

Clete cannot show Paul's great glorious gospel in Romans chapters 9 or 11.
So, in chapter 10, he robs this confession of Jesus Christ from the Jewish believers and claims it's for the body. It isn't.

This is serious business, and should not be ignored. You all claim to rightly divide. Let's see some proof of that.

If you end up on my ignore list, I will leave this site forever. It will prove this site to be a perfect waste of time that can no longer be justified by anyone with a thinking mind.

We are done with this for now.

You can, if you like, send me a link that has a book or some sort of in depth article that makes something that at least looks like the biblical argument that you seem either unwilling to unable to make, if such a thing even exists. I won't pay any attention at all to anything else.

Clete

 

[glorydaz]

I did not read this. When you answer the question, we can continue. Not before.

This is why Paul wrote Romans 9-11 concerning the Jews.

Acts 21:20-21
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

This is what the Jews had to believe in order to be saved. It's also what Paul preached to the Jew (first). Romans 1:16

• Acts 8:37
  And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
  
  
• Acts 9:20
  And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Romans 10 is speaking of the remnant....not the body of Christ. It's entirely prophecy. Not at all the gospel of grace.

You can refuse to respond because I won't tell you about my husband and love and such.....but, you must see how silly you're being.
We're talking about what Paul wrote. If you refuse to listen, that's on you.

 

[glorydaz]

When people transparently avoid answering direct questions that are so intuitively pertinent to the point of disagreement, they become my best argument. The idea that making a verbal confession of faith is any sort of legalism is simply rediculous and my questions make that plain to anyone who can read.

I was just trying to explain why your list was in error.

It is NOT required that a person confess Jesus Christ as Lord in order to be saved.
It's perfectly fine and natural to do, but it is absolutely NOT a requirement.

It is a requirement for the believing Jews.
I didn't put this over on the law side. Jesus required it of the Jews.

• Matthew 10:32
  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
  
  
• Luke 12:8
  Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

While I was trying to tell you that, you got all up in arms about Romans 9-11.
You claimed those three chapter were part of Paul's glorious gospel.

They are NOT. They are a parenthesis, if you will, just like this church age is God's time line for Israel.

 

[glorydaz]

If you end up on my ignore list, I will leave this site forever. It will prove this site to be a perfect waste of time that can no longer be justified by anyone with a thinking mind.

We are done with this for now.

You can, if you like, send me a link that has a book or some sort of in depth article that makes something that at least looks like the biblical argument that you seem either unwilling to unable to make, if such a thing even exists. I won't pay any attention at all to anything else.

Clete

Yep, the Lord needs to take you down a few notches. You do not know everything, Clete. We all have plenty to learn....even you.

The Lord has been showing this to me for some time now, and Right Divider shared something from this site awhile back.
Here's a link you should find useful if you take the time to check those prophecies. Those prophecies are for the Jews, about the Jews and the remnant....including Peter. It was the Jews who required faith IN HIS NAME. You scoffed at that, but it should be understood by anyone who is trying to compile any kind of list.

The Context of Romans 9-11

graceambassadors.com

 

[glorydaz]

Musterion, I notice that not once in these three posts of yours have you provided ANY scripture, let alone the scripture that I have, twice, now, asked for.

Why are you being so evasive?





CAN YOU DO IT?

As for the following:



I'm not seeing where it says we must ONLY believe what those verses say. Yes, those verses tell us, explicitly, that salvation is by grace through faith, but it's not stating at all that you must only believe that, and nothing more or less.

So Musty, for the third time, can you please provide the chapter and verse that states that we must only believe certain things, and that if we believe more than that, we cannot get saved?

I'm not saying that things that are believed that are more than what is presented by Paul will get you saved, I'm saying that believing what Paul said regarding belief will result in being saved, IN SPITE of anything else one believes.

So, you're chastening Musty here, and then you banned him?

Why? Because he dared to disagree with you and Clete?
Am I next on this chopping block since I agree with Musty instead of Clete?

Is that how things work here?

Bring Musty back on board so the I can have someone who knows what I'm talking about.
Enough is enough!

 

[Idolater]

Yep, the Lord needs to take you down a few notches. You do not know everything, Clete. We all have plenty to learn....even you.

The Lord has been showing this to me for some time now, and Right Divider shared something from this site awhile back.
Here's a link you should find useful if you take the time to check those prophecies. Those prophecies are for the Jews, about the Jews and the remnant....including Peter. It was the Jews who required faith IN HIS NAME. You scoffed at that, but it should be understood by anyone who is trying to compile any kind of list.

The Context of Romans 9-11

graceambassadors.com

Based on the logic of that site, isn't Romans chapter 14 also not applicable to the BOC? Verse 17 " For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink". Eating and drinking is the whole chapter, so this means this chapter also is not written to the Church the Body of Christ then? According to the logic of that site? Is this how you're reading and understanding it too?

 

[glorydaz]

Based on the logic of that site, isn't Romans chapter 14 also not applicable to the BOC? Verse 17 " For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink". Eating and drinking is the whole chapter, so this means this chapter also is not written to the Church the Body of Christ then? According to the logic of that site? Is this how you're reading and understanding it too?

In the first place, I don't speak for this site or anyone else.

The kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom, and Paul is describing the liberty we have in Christ Jesus while we live here on earth.

So, Paul is, indeed, teaching body truths.

 

[glorydaz]

If you end up on my ignore list, I will leave this site forever. It will prove this site to be a perfect waste of time that can no longer be justified by anyone with a thinking mind.



Clete

Oh, so you'll leave this site forever all because of me? So much for the ministry of the body of Christ. You can't teach the truth until you know the truth, and you can't teach others if you take your ball and go home every time you are corrected or given something to reconsider. I expected more from you, Clete.

2 Timothy 2:2
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.​