Beloved57 are you sure you’re chosen?

[glorydaz]

My entire point is that it is not possible to make an affirmative case from the biblical material that someone isn't saved if they fail to realize that their salvation is a free gift. That isn't sufficient to PROVE that it isn't necessary but, since the bible is where we go to get our doctrine, it certainly points in that direction.

Imagine if that were the case on something else, like the deity of Christ, for example. Imagine trying to make the case that Jesus is God Himself without any of John's writings on the subject (there are a few others but John's writings constitute the bulk of the biblical material on the subject of Christ's deity). It wouldn't prove that Jesus wasn't God but it if the bible was empty of passages that overtly supported such an notion, you'd have a hard time convincing people to believe it. We have a hard enough time convincing a lot of people now in spite of passage that explicitly state things like that Jesus created all things and that He is the Alpha and the Omega. Imagine trying to make the case without such passages.

All I'm basically telling you is that you have a similar challenge. You're trying to establish a specific point that the bible has no explicit teaching of. In fact, as I've already argued, it seems to me that Colossians 3 argues against such a position. Thus, the preponderance of the evidence would seem to indicate that it is possible for someone to be saved in spite of being ignorant of the fact that their salvation is a free gift.

Clete

You think the Bible has no explicit teaching that salvation is a free gift, and you point to Col. 3 to prove what? That we have to do all those things to be saved? I hope you're not claiming that we are to put off the old man ourselves.

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Of course there is explicit teaching that salvation is a free gift. Paul's entire message of faith without works screams FREE GIFT.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 5:15-18
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Clete]

You think the Bible has no explicit teaching that salvation is a free gift, and you point to Col. 3 to prove what?

NO NO NO!!!

I did NOT say that there was no explicit teaching that salvation is a free gift!
There is no explicit teaching that if someone doesn't understand that particular truth then they are unsaved.

That we have to do all those things to be saved? I hope you're not claiming that we are to put off the old man ourselves.

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Of course there is explicit teaching that salvation is a free gift. Paul's entire message of faith without works screams FREE GIFT.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 5:15-18
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Eph. 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yes, yes, of course!
I've already told you several times that you establish that salvation is a free gift quite well. What you DO NOT establish is that any person who fails to understand that particular truth is going to Hell if he dies before learning it, regardless of what else he believes concerning the rest of the gospel.

Clete

 

[glorydaz]

NO NO NO!!!

I did NOT say that there was no explicit teaching that salvation is a free gift!
There is no explicit teaching that if someone doesn't understand that particular truth then they are unsaved.


Yes, yes, of course!
I've already told you several times that you establish that salvation is a free gift quite well. What you DO NOT establish is that any person who fails to understand that particular truth is going to Hell if he dies before learning it, regardless of what else he believes concerning the rest of the gospel.

Clete

I would love it if everyone could be saved. Not everyone gets to hear the gospel preached as it should be, but scripture says all the world will hear it. Doesn't it?

Luke 12:48
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

However, ask someone if they're saved, and then judge for yourself if they're relying on the cross or their own works.
One's faith must be in the finished work of the cross. I'm of the opinion that is required to be a member of the body of Christ.
Not all who are saved or will be saved are members of the body. The Kingdom believers had faith in His name and confessed His name.

 

[Clete]

I would love it if everyone could be saved. Not everyone gets to hear the gospel preached as it should be, but scripture says all the world will hear it. Doesn't it?

Luke 12:48
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

However, ask someone if they're saved, and then judge for yourself if they're relying on the cross or their own works.
One's faith must be in the finished work of the cross. I'm of the opinion that is required to be a member of the body of Christ.
Not all who are saved or will be saved are members of the body. The Kingdom believers had faith in His name and confessed His name.

No one is suggesting that everyone is going to be saved. Quite the contrary. The entire point is that ONLY those who believe certain things will be saved. The question is what are those things. You seem convinced that my list is fine except that it is missing one point but then a few posts ago you suggested that a person could get saved by believing "even less". My goal is simply to try my best to nail down just what those things are.

I'm willing to add to the list that I've compiled but so far, you've not convinced me that it is impossible for a person to be saved if they fail to understand the free gift nature of salvation. Nor have you made the case that simply having left out any doctrines that require works isn't sufficient.

Clete

 

[glorydaz]

No one is suggesting that everyone is going to be saved. Quite the contrary. The entire point is that ONLY those who believe certain things will be saved. The question is what are those things. You seem convinced that my list is fine except that it is missing one point but then a few posts ago you suggested that a person could get saved by believing "even less". My goal is simply to try my best to nail down just what those things are.

I'm willing to add to the list that I've compiled but so far, you've not convinced me that it is impossible for a person to be saved if they fail to understand the free gift nature of salvation. Nor have you made the case that simply having left out any doctrines that require works isn't sufficient.

Clete

Confessing the Lord with your mouth is not a requirement for salvation.

Eph. 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Obviously people have been saved by believing less than Paul's gospel.
For those in the body of Christ, it is faith alone in the work of the cross alone.

 

[JudgeRightly]

NO NO NO!!!

I did NOT say that there was no explicit teaching that salvation is a free gift!
There is no explicit teaching that if someone doesn't understand that particular truth then they are unsaved.


Yes, yes, of course!
I've already told you several times that you establish that salvation is a free gift quite well. What you DO NOT establish is that any person who fails to understand that particular truth is going to Hell if he dies before learning it, regardless of what else he believes concerning the rest of the gospel.

Clete

This is the point I was making earlier to Musty.

 

[Clete]

Confessing the Lord with your mouth is not a requirement for salvation.

Interesting point.

Prove it.

Eph. 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Obviously people have been saved by believing less than Paul's gospel.
For those in the body of Christ, it is faith alone in the work of the cross alone.

Obviously? Where is the evidence that there were people in Ephesus who had refused or otherwise failed to confess with their mouths the Lord Jesus Christ?

Are you trying to say that having words pass your lips is some sort of "work" where once done you've somehow earned your salvation?

If so, then all I can say is, give me a break. Did you say thank you to your husband when he gave you a gift? Do you ever say, "I love you." out loud to your spouse? Have you then somehow done something to deserve the gifts you've been given and relationship you have with him? Are these words you've spoken somehow payments against a debt you owe?

People are so good at picking at nits over grace and turning anything that isn't entirely mental into a work of the flesh. Having the thoughts in your head come out of your mouth is NOT a "work" in the Romans 4:5 sense of the word. It's little more than proof that the mind and the mouth belong to the same person. It is words that are being preached, heard, understood, thought about and accepted and you do believe that they are required to think certain words (i.e. ideas - regardless of the language), so how does it change it into some sort of legalism if someone says what they're thinking out loud?

Clete

 

[Clete]

This is the point I was making earlier to Musty.

Surprisingly difficult point to get across. I keep finding myself using double negatives.

It isn't a point I would have ever expected there to be controversy about. As a result, I've thought more about this specific point than I probably ever would have had I not started this conversation. That alone has made it a worthwhile exercise.

 

[glorydaz]

Interesting point.

Prove it.

Obviously? Where is the evidence that there were people in Ephesus who had refused or otherwise failed to confess with their mouths the Lord Jesus Christ?

Are you trying to say that having words pass your lips is some sort of "work" where once done you've somehow earned your salvation?

If so, then all I can say is, give me a break. Did you say thank you to your husband when he gave you a gift? Do you ever say, "I love you." out loud to your spouse? Have you then somehow done something to deserve the gifts you've been given and relationship you have with him? Are these words you've spoken somehow payments against a debt you owe?

People are so good at picking at nits over grace and turning anything that isn't entirely mental into a work of the flesh. Having the thoughts in your head come out of your mouth is NOT a "work" in the Romans 4:5 sense of the word. It's little more than proof that the mind and the mouth belong to the same person. It is words that are being preached, heard, understood, thought about and accepted and you do believe that they are required to think certain words (i.e. ideas - regardless of the language), so how does it change it into some sort of legalism if someone says what they're thinking out loud?

Clete

I'm merely pointing out what scripture makes clear....when it's rightly divided.
"Picking nits" is what's required when studying the word of God. That grunt work is to be done by members of the body.

There are no IF's in the grace of God.
IF you confess with your mouth puts a requirement that isn't there with Paul's gospel.
If you forgive others, you will be forgiven. Another requirement that isn't there with Paul's gospel.

Faith alone.
Which, by the way, shows the importance of salvation being a gift.
Is it a small detail? Of course not. It's adding just a tiny small requirement that is NOT there.

 

[glorydaz]

Surprisingly difficult point to get across. I keep finding myself using double negatives.

It isn't a point I would have ever expected there to be controversy about. As a result, I've thought more about this specific point than I probably ever would have had I not started this conversation. That alone has made it a worthwhile exercise.

See all the problems that can arise when you add one simple thing to the gospel? Like, confess with your mouth.

In the same way, when you leave out the fact that salvation is a gift you cannot earn, you're missing an essential.

The very fact that we're to have faith in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, puts ALL THE emphasis on the work of the cross.
That work on the cross was God's gift to mankind. Accept it or reject it, but don't try to add a single thing to it.

 

[Clete]

I'm merely pointing out what scripture makes clear....when it's rightly divided.
"Picking nits" is what's required when studying the word of God. That grunt work is to be done by members of the body.

I honestly do not know how to even respond to someone who thinks that Romans 10:10 is legalism. It like you showed up here and claimed the sky is red.

There are no IF's in the grace of God.
IF you confess with your mouth puts a requirement that isn't there with Paul's gospel.
If you forgive others, you will be forgiven. Another requirement that isn't there with Paul's gospel.

Faith alone.
Which, by the way, shows the importance of salvation being a gift.
Is it a small detail? Of course not. It's adding just a tiny small requirement that is NOT there.

It's flatly false, is what it is.

IF you believe.

What do you do with that IF?

Clete

P.S. You need to start responding directly to the arguments I make. Why did you ignore ALL of the substance of my last response to this simply nonsensical idea?

 

[Clete]

See all the problems that can arise when you add one simple thing to the gospel? Like, confess with your mouth.

In the same way, when you leave out the fact that salvation is a gift you cannot earn, you're missing an essential.

The very fact that we're to have faith in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, puts ALL THE emphasis on the work of the cross.
That work on the cross was God's gift to mankind. Accept it or reject it, but don't try to add a single thing to it.

The difficulty putting this issues involved into written words has nothing whatsoever to do with adding something to the gospel AND YOU KNOW IT!

This sort of response belongs in the mouths of people like Nang and B57. You're better. Be better.

 

[glorydaz]

I honestly do not know how to even respond to someone who thinks that Romans 10:10 is legalism. It like you showed up here and claimed the sky is red.


It's flatly false, is what it is.

IF you believe.

What do you do with that IF?

Clete

P.S. You need to start responding directly to the arguments I make. Why did you ignore ALL of the substance of my last response to this simply nonsensical idea?

Legalism? Where in the world do you get that idea? Romans 9, 10, and 11 all pertain to Israel. That's my whole point, and I don't know why it's so impossible for you to consider.

I'm trying to explain how Romans 10 shows how prophecy is fulfilled in the Kingdom believers.
Was it legalism for Peter when he was still zealous of the law?

What was --Deut. 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.
Replaced with ----John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

It's the kingdom believers who no longer kept the law for righteousness, and were saved by faith IN HIS NAME.

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 3:16

And his name through faith in his name

 

[glorydaz]

The difficulty putting this issues involved into written words has nothing whatsoever to do with adding something to the gospel AND YOU KNOW IT!

This sort of response belongs in the mouths of people like Nang and B57. You're better. Be better.

Let's face it, Clete. I'll probably never live up to your standards. I can't be better. I am only what the Lord makes me, and I stand by what I said. Attempts to compare me to those posters don't phase me in the least. I know it a false charge.


However, I won't agree with you when I know how important it is that salvation be presented as a gift from God. Preaching the Gospel of Grace without showing it's freely given to all who believe is just plain wrong.

Also, the Romans 10 issue remains the same as John 3:15. In and of themselves they're fine, but they are not intended for us.

 

[Clete]

Let's face it, Clete. I'll probably never live up to your standards. I can't be better. I am only what the Lord makes me, and I stand by what I said. Attempts to compare me to those posters don't phase me in the least. I know it a false charge.

This was an emotional reaction.

Prove me wrong. Show me the argument. Connect the dots for me glorydaz!

You can't. Won't even try because you know for a fact that my difficulty in getting the purpose of this list into words has nothing at all to do with "adding to the gospel". You knew it was BS when you said and here you are doubling done on it. That's just exactly the sort of crap I'd expect from Nang. I expect better from you precisely because you are capable of it.

However, I won't agree with you when I know how important it is that salvation be presented as a gift from God. Preaching the Gospel of Grace without showing it's freely given to all who believe is just plain wrong.

Also, the Romans 10 issue remains the same as John 3:15. In and of themselves they're fine, but they are not intended for us.

Utter nonsense. You couldn't beging to make anything that comes within a hundred miles of a rational argument for such a completely upside down statement.

 

[Clete]

Legalism? Where in the world do you get that idea? Romans 9, 10, and 11 all pertain to Israel. That's my whole point, and I don't know why it's so impossible for you to consider.

You've given me no reason to consider it. It's plain lunatic insanity. Those chapters are the crescendo of the single greatest theological treatise in the history of mankind and one that follows one of the most eloquent teachings of the difference between law and grace that it is possible to pen and you somehow - SOMEHOW - imagine that those chapters were written for the Jews and teach law! There's more reason to believe that God predestined Adam's fall than there is for believing that the Apostle Paul taught law to Kingdom Jews ANYWHERE much less in the tenth chapter of the greatest presentation of the grace gospel that anyone will ever read!

I'm trying to explain how Romans 10 shows how prophecy is fulfilled in the Kingdom believers.
Was it legalism for Peter when he was still zealous of the law?

YES! It was! Peter was saved under the law and he remained under the law until his natural death. It was actually James who said that his followers were all "zealous for the law" and rightly so! Their whole program was

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

What was --Deut. 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.
Replaced with ----John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

It's the kingdom believers who no longer kept the law for righteousness, and were saved by faith IN HIS NAME.

I literally cannot believe I just read that. I literally - LITERALLY - have never read anything so completely contrary to the truth. Where did you ever get taught this?

The last time I was this flabbergasted was by the lunatic ravings I was exposed to in that thread about Flat Earth Theory.

 

[glorydaz]

This was an emotional reaction.

Prove me wrong. Show me the argument. Connect the dots for me glorydaz!

You can't. Won't even try because you know for a fact that my difficulty in getting the purpose of this list into words has nothing at all to do with "adding to the gospel". You knew it was BS when you said and here you are doubling done on it. That's just exactly the sort of crap I'd expect from Nang. I expect better from you precisely because you are capable of it.


Utter nonsense. You couldn't beging to make anything that comes within a hundred miles of a rational argument for such a completely upside down statement.

I'm really surprised you're in the dark about Romans 10.

If you think Paul was telling the body of Christ that they must confess Jesus Christ with their mouth, then you'd be able to show it. Without using a portion of scripture that is totally Israel from start to finish, that is.

 

[glorydaz]

You've given me no reason to consider it. It's plain lunatic insanity. Those chapters are the crescendo of the single greatest theological treatise in the history of mankind and one that follows one of the most eloquent teachings of the difference between law and grace that it is possible to pen and you somehow - SOMEHOW - imagine that those chapters were written for the Jews and teach law! There's more reason to believe that God predestined Adam's fall than there is for believing that the Apostle Paul taught law to Kingdom Jews ANYWHERE much less in the tenth chapter of the greatest presentation of the grace gospel that anyone will ever read!


YES! It was! Peter was saved under the law and he remained under the law until his natural death. It was actually James who said that his followers were all "zealous for the law" and rightly so! Their whole program was

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


I literally cannot believe I just read that. I literally - LITERALLY - have never read anything so completely contrary to the truth. Where did you ever get taught this?

The last time I was this flabbergasted was by the lunatic ravings I was exposed to in that thread about Flat Earth Theory.

That's how I felt when I first heard about dispensations. I feel for ya, Clete. A person can get so set in their ways, they refuse to even consider anything else. Suffice it to say, I am not alone in this believe that Romans 8-11 was specifically referring to Israel.

So tell me. What part of Romans 9 is also part of this great presentation of the grace gospel?

 

[Hoping]

I'm merely pointing out what scripture makes clear....when it's rightly divided.
"Picking nits" is what's required when studying the word of God. That grunt work is to be done by members of the body.

There are no IF's in the grace of God.
IF you confess with your mouth puts a requirement that isn't there with Paul's gospel.
If you forgive others, you will be forgiven. Another requirement that isn't there with Paul's gospel.

Faith alone.
Which, by the way, shows the importance of salvation being a gift.
Is it a small detail? Of course not. It's adding just a tiny small requirement that is NOT there.

It breaks my heart when I see Paul's teachings on the non-necessity of circumcision and dietary laws, (the Law of Moses), for salvation, turned into a doctrine that eliminates the words of Jesus Christ, and the other apostles, from the arena.

 

[Clete]

That's how I felt when I first heard about dispensations. I feel for ya, Clete. A person can get so set in their ways, they refuse to even consider anything else. Suffice it to say, I am not alone in this believe that Romans 8-11 was specifically referring to Israel.

You are the one making the claim, not me. It isn't my burden to prove you wrong, it's your burden to prove your own case. Give me a reason to think that it's something other than nonsense and I will consider it. That is THE only reason I'm even here.

So tell me. What part of Romans 9 is also part of this great presentation of the grace gospel?

What are you even talking about? The entire book of Romans is Paul's presentation of the gospel!

Clete