Beloved57 are you sure you’re chosen?

[Idolater]

...The devil is in the details.
Put in details that aren't there, and they're the devil's details.
Take out details that should be there.....that's the devil's work.

God is in the details that the Devil works to take out.

 

[glorydaz]

Philippians 1:18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.​

Clete

If you're going to quote that one, you'd best see what Paul is really saying.

Paul was speaking of the brethren in the Lord whose "motives" were bad. Not that the gospel was being adulterated.

Phil. 1:14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

 

[glorydaz]

God is in the details that the Devil works to take out.

The devil likes to add as well as subtract.

 

[glorydaz]

That's a great verse but it cannot possibly be the "go to verse when preaching the gospel". Any message that fails to mention sin and one's resultant need for a savior along with Christ and what was done at Calvary and His resurrection from the dead is entirely incomplete.

In other words, faith in what?

You can't answer that without basically quoting Romans and Romans 10 in particular.

Is it not faith in Christ? And more specifically, in His death and resurrection?

That's why people say this is the gospel.

1 Cor. 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I could add John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 3:16 is speaking of belief in Jesus Christ the Son of God.

Romans 10 has a great big huge IF that certainly should stand out like a sore thumb.

 

[Idolater]

The devil likes to add as well as subtract.

I know that, but we always say 'the devil is in the details' which forgets that also it's true that God is in the details.

President Trump taught us that. God is in the details, not just the Devil.

 

[Clete]

The preaching of the gospel is in the red. expand to see -- Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.

Also, you can't take that verse, because it doesn't address WHAT one must believe about Jesus Christ.



How do you know that? Seriously.
You're judging by his letters, and you say they're written to believers.

The devil is in the details.
Put in details that aren't there, and they're the devil's details.
Take out details that should be there.....that's the devil's work.

Paul's letters where written to believers (i.e. that isn't what "I say" as though it were a matter of opinion). That doesn't mean that no unbeliever was ever exposed to his writtings or that unbelievers can't read and understand Paul's letters. It means that Paul wrote his letters to believers. He wrote them to congregations of churches which he had founded. That is a simple fact and not debatable.

And as for what was preached to the jailer, lets leave it then at - there is no passage where Paul is recorded as having overtly taught that salvation was a free gift to an unbeliever, which was my point in the first place.

Clete

 

[Clete]

If you're going to quote that one, you'd best see what Paul is really saying.

Paul was speaking of the brethren in the Lord whose "motives" were bad. Not that the gospel was being adulterated.

Phil. 1:14 And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:
16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:
17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

They were preaching it for monetary gain. How do you suppose that can be done without altering the gospel? There isn't any way. You would have to add something. My point is that it almost doesn't matter what is added in regard to whether it has the power to save people so long as certain details are not excluded. Such erronious additions have the deleterious effects, to be sure, but failing to get someone saved, doesn't appear to be one of them or Paul couldn't rejoice as he does.

 

[Clete]

That's why people say this is the gospel.

1 Cor. 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

I could add John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 3:16 is speaking of belief in Jesus Christ the Son of God.

Romans 10 has a great big huge IF that certainly should stand out like a sore thumb.

So how is any of that in conflict with the six points I've presented?

 

[Clete]

@glorydaz,

Please respond to the following....

Just pretend that YOU preached the gospel to someone. You preached it precisely the way you think it ought to be preached. You included every point I've listed and you included every other point that anyone might think is part of the gospel. You preached Christ's death, His resurrection, faith only - no works - free gift - et. al., you even touched on the identification truths and how we are now Christ's own righteousness, etc, etc, etc. You preached it all - practically read the whole New Testament to the crowd.

In response someone not only believes in God but believes that He became a man who then lived a perfect life then offered that life as a payment for the sins of whole world. He then responds to that knowledge by calling upon the name of Jesus for the salvation of his soul and he completely believe that Jesus not only died for his sin but that God raised Him from the dead. He accepts all of that and tells as many people around him as will listen.

There's one catch...

Even though you preached it, he somehow got distracted and managed to missed the point about it being a free gift. He doesn't necessarily have any problem with the notion but he's simply ignorant of it.

Is that person saved or not?

I say definitely yes! He can learn the rest of the details in time and may well spend the rest of his natural life learning them but the moment he acknowledges his need for a savior, calls on the name of Jesus for that salvation and believes that God raised Him from the dead, the Holy Spirit seals him unto the Day of Redemption and while every good work he performs may end up getting fried in the fire because of his ignorance, he himself will be saved.

Also, I want to stress the point that this is what I'm talking about. I'm not suggesting that ANY aspect of Paul's gospel ought to be neglected at all. I'm just focused like a laser on what's the bare minimum that MUST (i.e. not what SHOULD happen) happen inside the mind of a person to go from unsaved to saved. I'm not looking for the ideal gospel but the gospel proper.

Clete

 

[glorydaz]

Paul's letters where written to believers (i.e. that isn't what "I say" as though it were a matter of opinion). That doesn't mean that no unbeliever was ever exposed to his writtings or that unbelievers can't read and understand Paul's letters. It means that Paul wrote his letters to believers. He wrote them to congregations of churches which he had founded. That is a simple fact and not debatable.

And as for what was preached to the jailer, lets leave it then at - there is no passage where Paul is recorded as having overtly taught that salvation was a free gift to an unbeliever, which was my point in the first place.

Clete

Very sneaky. Since we don't hear Paul preaching on the streets, he can't have mentioned that eternal life is a gift.

Read page 171 in the Plot.

 

[glorydaz]

They were preaching it for monetary gain. How do you suppose that can be done without altering the gospel? There isn't any way. You would have to add something. My point is that it almost doesn't matter what is added in regard to whether it has the power to save people so long as certain details are not excluded. Such erronious additions have the deleterious effects, to be sure, but failing to get someone saved, doesn't appear to be one of them or Paul couldn't rejoice as he does.

My goodness. The gospel didn't need to be altered in order to attract a following. The preacher could dress up in fancy clothes and play a tamborine. They could put the apostle down because he was in jail and was covered with scars. Drawing people unto themselves is the point.

 

[glorydaz]

So how is any of that in conflict with the six points I've presented?

Didn't say it was. We have an ongoing conversation, and I was merely responding to that conversation.

 

[glorydaz]

@glorydaz,

Please respond to the following....

Just pretend that YOU preached the gospel to someone. You preached it precisely the way you think it ought to be preached. You included every point I've listed and you included every other point that anyone might think is part of the gospel. You preached Christ's death, His resurrection, faith only - no works - free gift - et. al., you even touched on the identification truths and how we are now Christ's own righteousness, etc, etc, etc. You preached it all - practically read the whole New Testament to the crowd.

In response someone not only believes in God but believes that He became a man who then lived a perfect life then offered that life as a payment for the sins of whole world. He then responds to that knowledge by calling upon the name of Jesus for the salvation of his soul and he completely believe that Jesus not only died for his sin but that God raised Him from the dead. He accepts all of that and tells as many people around him as will listen.

There's one catch...

Even though you preached it, he somehow got distracted and managed to missed the point about it being a free gift. He doesn't necessarily have any problem with the notion but he's simply ignorant of it.

Is that person saved or not?

I say definitely yes! He can learn the rest of the details in time and may well spend the rest of his natural life learning them but the moment he acknowledges his need for a savior, calls on the name of Jesus for that salvation and believes that God raised Him from the dead, the Holy Spirit seals him unto the Day of Redemption and while every good work he performs may end up getting fried in the fire because of his ignorance, he himself will be saved.

Also, I want to stress the point that this is what I'm talking about. I'm not suggesting that ANY aspect of Paul's gospel ought to be neglected at all. I'm just focused like a laser on what's the bare minimum that MUST (i.e. not what SHOULD happen) happen inside the mind of a person to go from unsaved to saved. I'm not looking for the ideal gospel but the gospel proper.

Clete

Theoretically, a person can be saved on even less. In the same way, a person can hear it all and more and still not be saved.

I'm convinced it's impossible to know what a person believes in their heart. What their mental accent is counts for nothing.

 

[Clete]

Very sneaky. Since we don't hear Paul preaching on the streets, he can't have mentioned that eternal life is a gift.

Read page 171 in the Plot.

That isn't my argument and you know it.

This is desperation on your part. If you can't respond without lying about what I've said, then lets just agree to disagree and let it go.

 

[Clete]

Theoretically, a person can be saved on even less. In the same way, a person can hear it all and more and still not be saved.

I'm not discussing people who don't get saved, only those who do, but...

Even less? Now that would be directly pertinent to the question at hand!

It is a bit confusing though! You're here telling me that I haven't included enough and now you're telling me that I could have included even less!

How much less?

What, in your view, could be left out and still theoretically manage to get someone saved? That theoretical limit is precisely what I'm trying to define with my list of doctrines.

Clete

 

[glorydaz]

That isn't my argument and you know it.

This is desperation on your part. If you can't respond without lying about what I've said, then lets just agree to disagree and let it go.

If it isn't your argument, why do you keep talking about it.

It's not desperation. It's stupidity, because I really don't know which of my points might be something you're looking for.

And I'm certainly not lying. So you decide what you do about it.
I'm just a doing my best to respond to your posts.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm not discussing people who don't get saved, only those who do, but...

Even less? Now that would be directly pertinent to the question at hand!

It is a bit confusing though! You're here telling me that I haven't included enough and now you're telling me that I could have included even less!

How much less?

What, in your view, could be left out and still theoretically manage to get someone saved? That theoretical limit is precisely what I'm trying to define with my list of doctrines.

Clete

So here you are insisting I help you with your list.
It seems like such a waste to me when there are so many worthwhile things we could be discussing. But, since you insist....

I'll assume you are talking about what it takes to be saved today.
You're wanting an all inclusive list, as if a person has never heard anything about how they can get saved?

I would suggest you start with what Paul says everyone knows. So I guess you could leave that out.

Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Don't get impatient. I'm trying to figure out how to go from preaching the gospel to putting it down on paper. Mainly because I can ask questions about current knowledge and correct them as I go....with Paul's words (most of which are his gospel).

 

[Clete]

So here you are insisting I help you with your list.
It seems like such a waste to me when there are so many worthwhile things we could be discussing. But, since you insist....

I'll assume you are talking about what it takes to be saved today.
You're wanting an all inclusive list, as if a person has never heard anything about how they can get saved?

No, I'm wanting the opposite of the all inclusive list.

Is it possible for a person to not believe that God exists and be saved? No! Therefore, it is on the list.
Is it possible for a person to be saved without admitting guilt of sin and acknowledging the need to be saved? No! Therefore, it is on the list.

The list of doctrines that I've compiled are, I believe, those things which a person MUST believe. They aren't even close to being the whole gospel. There's a whole lot more that a person ought to believe and they will be in for a great deal of needless effort, frustration, guilt, loss, etc if they fail to learn it but they will still be saved. I'm looking to strip all that sort of thing back and see the CORE of the gospel. The doctrines without any one of which a person is lost.

I would suggest you start with what Paul says everyone knows. So I guess you could leave that out.

Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

That's the right track!
That's points one and two!

It's not only that God exists but that He is the Creator and is majestic beyond description, He is righteous and just, etc. all of which is evident and knowable by natural law.

Don't get impatient. I'm trying to figure out how to go from preaching the gospel to putting it down on paper. Mainly because I can ask questions about current knowledge and correct them as I go....with Paul's words (most of which are his gospel).

That sounds like anything but a waste of time. Such analytical thinking through of what otherwise might be considered elementary principles is one of the best ways one can spend their free time. It's like getting a deeper understanding of a house by studying its foundation or trying to gain insight into biology by trying to define what qualifies something as being alive. Definitely not a waste of time!

Just to make it easy to reference, I'll repost the list here....

• God exists.
• He is the Creator of all things and He is holy, perfect and just.
• We have, by doing evil things, rebelled against God.
• We, having rebelled against the God who gave us life, deserve death.
• God, being unwilling that all should perish, provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ and who is God Himself become flesh.
• Jesus, being Himself innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
• Jesus rose from the dead.
• If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

The last point is quite redundant as the previous points are mostly just a fleshing out of what it means to confess the Lord Jesus Christ.

And just to emphasize, this isn't the whole gospel but only the barest necessities of getting saved.

Incidentally, I also understand that someone can state and perhaps even actually believe that they affirm all of these points but, as you say, it really does depend on what's in someone's mind because a person might say that they believe God is just but they've got a twisted understanding of what justice is and so out of one side of their mouths they acknowledge God's justice while out of the other side they proclaim that God arranged the fall of man. Such people are double minded and deceive themselves. Thus, it should be kept in mind that words mean things and that ideas have consequences and so when I say that one must believe that God is perfect and just, I do not mean that in the Aristotelian sense but in the actual sense, the real sense, the rational sense - the NORMAL sense of those words and if someone believes those words to mean something weird like the Calvinists (and other Augustinians) often do, then they may well not qualify as believers.

Clete

 

[Hoping]

No, I'm wanting the opposite of the all inclusive list.

Is it possible for a person to not believe that God exists and be saved? No! Therefore, it is on the list.
Is it possible for a person to be saved without admitting guilt of sin and acknowledging the need to be saved? No! Therefore, it is on the list.

The list of doctrines that I've compiled are, I believe, those things which a person MUST believe. They aren't even close to being the whole gospel. There's a whole lot more that a person ought to believe and they will be in for a great deal of needless effort, frustration, guilt, loss, etc if they fail to learn it but they will still be saved. I'm looking to strip all that sort of thing back and see the CORE of the gospel. The doctrines without any one of which a person is lost.


That's the right track!
That's points one and two!

It's not only that God exists but that He is the Creator and is majestic beyond description, He is righteous and just, etc. all of which is evident and knowable by natural law.


That sounds like anything but a waste of time. Such analytical thinking through of what otherwise might be considered elementary principles is one of the best ways one can spend their free time. It's like getting a deeper understanding of a house by studying its foundation or trying to gain insight into biology by trying to define what qualifies something as being alive. Definitely not a waste of time!

Just to make it easy to reference, I'll repost the list here....

• God exists.
• He is the Creator of all things and He is holy, perfect and just.
• We have, by doing evil things, rebelled against God.
• We, having rebelled against the God who gave us life, deserve death.
• God, being unwilling that all should perish, provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ and who is God Himself become flesh.
• Jesus, being Himself innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
• Jesus rose from the dead.
• If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

The last point is quite redundant as the previous points are mostly just a fleshing out of what it means to confess the Lord Jesus Christ.

And just to emphasize, this isn't the whole gospel but only the barest necessities of getting saved.

Incidentally, I also understand that someone can state and perhaps even actually believe that they affirm all of these points but, as you say, it really does depend on what in someone's mind because a person might say that they believe God is just but they've got a twisted understanding of what justice is and so out of one side of their mouths they acknowledge God's justice while out of the other side they proclaim that God arranged the fall of man. Such people are double minded and deceive themselves. Thus, it should be kept in mind that words mean things and that ideas have consequences and so when I say that one must believe that God is perfect and just, I do not mean that in the Aristotelian sense but in the actual sense, the real sense, the rational sense - the NORMAL sense of those words and if someone believes those words to mean something weird like the Calvinists (and other Augustinians) often do, then they may well not qualify as believers.

Clete

I'm glad you repeated your list.
I agree with your summation, that it is the minimum necessary for salvation.
It seems like the first tier of knowledge built on top of the "rock" made known to Peter...that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. (Matt 16:16)

 

[Clete]

If it isn't your argument, why do you keep talking about it.

It's not desperation. It's stupidity, because I really don't know which of my points might be something you're looking for.

And I'm certainly not lying. So you decide what you do about it.
I'm just a doing my best to respond to your posts.

My entire point is that it is not possible to make an affirmative case from the biblical material that someone isn't saved if they fail to realize that their salvation is a free gift. That isn't sufficient to PROVE that it isn't necessary but, since the bible is where we go to get our doctrine, it certainly points in that direction.

Imagine if that were the case on something else, like the deity of Christ, for example. Imagine trying to make the case that Jesus is God Himself without any of John's writings on the subject (there are a few others but John's writings constitute the bulk of the biblical material on the subject of Christ's deity). It wouldn't prove that Jesus wasn't God but it if the bible was empty of passages that overtly supported such an notion, you'd have a hard time convincing people to believe it. We have a hard enough time convincing a lot of people now in spite of passage that explicitly state things like that Jesus created all things and that He is the Alpha and the Omega. Imagine trying to make the case without such passages.

All I'm basically telling you is that you have a similar challenge. You're trying to establish a specific point that the bible has no explicit teaching of. In fact, as I've already argued, it seems to me that Colossians 3 argues against such a position. Thus, the preponderance of the evidence would seem to indicate that it is possible for someone to be saved in spite of being ignorant of the fact that their salvation is a free gift.

Clete