Beloved57 are you sure you’re chosen?

[Clete]

Just for the record, and this is my own 'Protestant' interpretation of what happened when I was bodily received into the Catholic Church: I but had to truthfully confess the Niceno-Constantinapolitano Creed, which doesn't say anything about praying to the Blessed Mother, believing in sins having different weightings, or any other 'Catholic mumbo-jumbo'.

The issue might not be what it doesn't say but what it does say, which I know nothing about. Is there anything in it that conflicts with the gospel proper as I have presented it?

There's plenty of time to wrestle with all the things you might struggle with, all the while feasting on the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

Do you, as a Catholic, affirm all of the following without caveat, qualification, addition or omission (i.e. in so far as getting saved is concerned)?
Asked another way... Do you believe that someone who believes the following, as stated, is saved?
(The wording of each point is quite intentional so pay attention to the details.)

• God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
• We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
• Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
• Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
• Jesus rose from the dead.
• If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

btw Clete I believe this post of yours earned you my very first 'lol' 'Like' here, since the new forum. And I appreciate your levelheadedness here in this particular matter.

 

[Right Divider]

Do you, as a Catholic, affirm all of the following without caveat, qualification, addition or omission?

Not if he's a "good Catholic"

 

[Clete]

Not if he's a "good Catholic"

Well, it obviously isn't a complete list of all the doctrines he holds too but I'm asking about what is needed to be saved, not what is needed to be a good Catholic.

 

[Right Divider]

Well, it obviously isn't a complete list of all the doctrines he holds too but I'm asking about what is needed to be saved, not what is needed to be a good Catholic.

Yes, I understand. Just saying that he claims to be Catholic (RCC) and they do not agree with your list.

 

[musterion]

If he does, he's anathema.

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely fruits and signs of justification obtained, not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone say that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out ... that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged ... before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

 

[Clete]

Yes, I understand. Just saying that he claims to be Catholic (RCC) and they do not agree with your list.

I don't know much about Catholic doctrine so if it turns out to be the case that they, in fact, do not agree with my list, then I wonder on what basis musterion claims that my list would include Catholics?

 

[Right Divider]

I don't know much about Catholic doctrine so if it turns out to be the case that they, in fact, do not agree with my list, then I wonder on what basis musterion claims that my list would include Catholics?

Exactly... as I said, they would not be "good Catholics" (i.e., Catholics that agree 100% with their "churches" formal doctrines).

 

[Clete]

If he does, he's anathema.

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely fruits and signs of justification obtained, not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone say that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out ... that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged ... before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

For whatever reason, those all read as gobbledygook to me.

They could mean something I agree with or they could mean something else.

 

[musterion]

Clete is too obtuse to be reasonable but I suspect it's deliberate.

For the others:

No Catholic can agree with Clete's list without violation of Rome's canon law, making them anathema which, to Catholics, is {or should be} a damned serious matter.

There are other groups who would agree with it but add various works on top of it...but despite that, Clete indicated he would embrace them as saved anyway.

 

[JudgeRightly]

For whatever reason, those all read as gobbledygook to me.

They could mean something I agree with or they could mean something else.

If I may, @Clete...:

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

This is saying that "faith alone" and/or confidence in that doctrine causes one to be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely fruits and signs of justification obtained, not the cause of its increase, let him be anathema.

This is saying that works are required for salvation, and that if someone says they are not required, but are simply a result of having faith, they are anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone say that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out ... that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged ... before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

This is saying that forgiveness is required after every time someone sins, and that if someone says that all sins are forgiven the moment one becomes saved, they are anathema.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Clete is too obtuse to be reasonable but I suspect it's deliberate.

Instead of assuming the worst, how about giving him the benefit of the doubt, and explaining, as I just did?

Guarantee you that not only would he not consider this site a waste of his time, but that it would result in a productive discussion about the topic at hand.

For the others:

No Catholic can agree with Clete's list without violation of Rome's canon law, making them anathema which, to Catholics, is {or should be} a damned serious matter.

Agreed.

And yet, regarding Clete's list, despite it being exclusively the gospel, if someone believes the things in it, despite their belief in anything else, including the RCC Canon, they'll still be saved, if only by the skin of their teeth.

There are other groups who would agree with it but add various works on top of it...but despite that, Clete indicated he would embrace them as saved anyway.

They're not saved because of their added items, but in spite of them, so long as they believe the things in Clete's list.

That's the point Clete is making.

 

[Idolater]

The issue might not be what it doesn't say but what it does say, which I know nothing about. Is there anything in it that conflicts with the gospel proper as I have presented it?

I don't think so. Here is what we confess:

Spoiler

[The Father]: I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

[The Son]: I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages.

God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made.

For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.

[The Spirit]: I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.

[The Body of Christ]: I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

Do you, as a Catholic, affirm all of the following without caveat, qualification, addition or omission (i.e. in so far as getting saved is concerned)?
Asked another way... Do you believe that someone who believes the following, as stated, is saved?
(The wording of each point is quite intentional so pay attention to the details.)

• God exists and is the Creator of all things and He is perfect, holy, and just.
• We, having willfully done evil things and rebelled against God, who gave us life, deserve death.
• Because God loves us, He provided for Himself a propitiation (an atoning sacrifice) by becoming a man whom we call Jesus Christ.
• Jesus, being the Creator God Himself and therefore innocent of any sin, willingly bore the sins of the world and died on our behalf.
• Jesus rose from the dead.
• If you confess with you mouth, the Lord Jesus Christ (i.e. openly acknowledge your need of a savior and that He is that Savior) and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, YOU WILL BE SAVED.

Sure.

 

[musterion]

They're not saved because of their added items, but in spite of them, so long as they believe the things in Clete's list.

That's the point Clete is making.

I understood that point years ago, the last time he and I tried having this same discussion. I disagreed with him then just as I do now, because adding anything to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ results in another gospel, which Paul said cannot save.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I understood that point years ago, the last time he and I tried having this same discussion. I disagreed with him then just as I do now, because adding anything to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ results in another gospel, which Paul said cannot save.

Chapter verse, please.

Here's what Paul said (speaking about :

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. - Galatians 1:6-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians1:6-9&version=NKJV

It says, regarding the one spreading that "different gospel which is not another," that he should be accursed. Not the ones who believe it.

 

[musterion]

Chapter verse, please.

Here's what Paul said (speaking about :

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. - Galatians 1:6-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians1:6-9&version=NKJV

It says, regarding the one spreading that "different gospel which is not another," that he should be accursed. Not the ones who believe it.

Adding something to the saving gospel, even something that God previously required of people (in that case, circumcision) now results in another gospel which is not, in fact, good news. It was works coupled with salvation by grace through faith, which we know makes the cross of no effect.

So answer this, JR. You tell me:

What happens if a person sincerely believes a gospel that preaches faith in the DBR and having to do even one work (say water baptism) in order to be saved?

That's exactly what the Church of Christ will tell you to do to be saved.

Are they correct?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Adding something to the saving gospel, even something that God previously required of people (in that case, circumcision) now results in another gospel which is not, in fact, good news.

Despite it containing good news?

Musty answer the challenge.

Provide the chapter and verse that says this:

because adding anything to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ results in another gospel, which Paul said cannot save.

It was works coupled with salvation by grace through faith, which we know makes the cross of no effect.

Chapter verse.

So answer this, JR. You tell me:

What happens if a person sincerely believes a gospel that preaches faith in the DBR and having to do even one work (say water baptism) in order to be saved?

Then they are saved, in spite of what they believe, because they put their faith in Christ (and all that that entails, as per Clete's list)

That's exactly what the Church of Christ will tell you to do to be saved.

Are they correct?

Are they correct to say that one needs to do that work? No.

Will the person be saved in spite of their being a stumbling block? Yes.

 

[musterion]

I'll get to this tonight on my laptop.

 

[Clete]

Clete is too obtuse to be reasonable but I suspect it's deliberate.

Yeah, right. Tell me again who isn't the problem?

For the others:

No Catholic can agree with Clete's list without violation of Rome's canon law, making them anathema which, to Catholics, is {or should be} a damned serious matter.

If this is the way you think, then on what basis do you call me a universalist?

If this the way you think, then on what basis do you say that Catholics would be included under the gospel as I have presented it?

There are other groups who would agree with it but add various works on top of it...but despite that, Clete indicated he would embrace them as saved anyway.

I will continue to do so until someone gives me a biblical reason to do otherwise. Call me all the names you want, proclaim to the whole world that I'm a universalist (of all the stupid things) or whatever convoluted stupidity you want to spit at me and it will not move me one single inch away from the gospel as I read it in God's word.

OR

You can make an actual argument and we can have a substantive discussion about an important topic.

 

[Clete]

I don't think so. Here is what we confess:
[The Father]: I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

[The Son]: I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages.

God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made.

For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.

[The Spirit]: I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.

[The Body of Christ]: I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

Sure.

The major issue there, so far, is the belief that water baptism gets you forgiven of sins. It does not.

Leaving that aside, however, this does not really answer my question.

What is the point of this confession? What effect does it have besides giving you membership as a Catholic? Does it have anything to do with getting saved? Is this confession sufficient to get someone into a saved condition or is Catholic soteriology something different? How does a Catholic believe people get saved? If a person affirmed that confession and then fell over dead, would it be sufficient to save that person?

That isn't really six different questions, I'm just struggling to find a way to articulate the question.

Basically, I'm asking you to tell me what it takes for a person to get saved and is it compatible with the gospel as I've presented it?

Clete

 

[glorydaz]

The Lord's last words on the cross were, "It is finished".

Nothing is to be added or can be added to the finished work of the cross, other than what the Lord Himself requires.
For some, faith and works were required.
For others NOTHING was to be added.

There is no end to what man can add to Christ's work on the cross, but is that something our Lord will allow?
Some were expected and will be expected to endure to the end to be saved.

What of those who believe they have to do something to be saved?
Can we honestly preach the gospel to those who insist on adding to the Cross?